# Republicans aim for a lame-duck power grab in Wisconsin **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 2, 2018, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-aim-for-a-lame-duck-power-grab-in-wisconsin/825459 "2018-12-02T20:12:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2018, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-aim-for-a-lame-duck-power-grab-in-wisconsin/825459/41 "2018-12-03T16:20:27Z")
[QUOTE=As long as that is permitted under the state Constitution, they are not hindering the peaceful transfer of power.[/QUOTE] No, they’re just hindering the power. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2018, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-aim-for-a-lame-duck-power-grab-in-wisconsin/825459/42 "2018-12-03T16:30:59Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > It most certainly did affect me. I retired in 2007 after 25 years as a Deputy Sheriff. I then started a second career with another agency. I didn’t have to pay into the retirement system during my first career. Now I do. My health insurance was free the first time around. If I were to take it with my current department it would cost me. > > I don’t have problem with either of those things. People in the private sector have to pay, why should I get a free ride at tax payers expense? Nothing is “free”. In your first career, your health insurance and retirement were part of your compensation package. Your union (or you if you were non-unionized) and your employer agreed to this total package which made them due to you for services rendered. You earned them. They were not free. What Wisconsin did was strip bargaining rights away from public sector workers on the grounds that “hey, public service workers and unions are overwhelmingly Democratic. Let’s fuck them over!” and nothing more. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2018, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-aim-for-a-lame-duck-power-grab-in-wisconsin/825459/43 "2018-12-03T17:21:04Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > What Wisconsin did was strip bargaining rights away from public sector workers on the grounds that “hey, public service workers and unions are overwhelmingly Democratic. Let’s fuck them over!” and nothing more. Never forget that they had to wait two extra weeks to fuck them over. Two whole weeks! It’s like the 9/11 of political shadiness. Never forget! ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2018, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-aim-for-a-lame-duck-power-grab-in-wisconsin/825459/44 "2018-12-03T17:27:34Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > No. Hell, no. > > The peaceful transfer of power is a cornerstone of democracy. And it’s been a cornerstone of ours, going back to Adams stepping down when Jefferson won the 1800 election. > > What we have here, in NC, in WI, in MI, is the GOP refusing to transfer power after losing an election. What the GOP is doing may violate no statutes, but it is most certainly a violation of first principles of how a democracy is supposed to work. The GOP routinely violates the social contract and then points fingers at the other side. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2018, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-aim-for-a-lame-duck-power-grab-in-wisconsin/825459/45 "2018-12-03T19:55:00Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > I don’t feel bad nor do I think what they are attempting is immoral. I don’t want Evers to be able to get his agenda through nor do I want the many good things that Walker and the legislature accomplished during the last 8 years to be reversed or watered down. That has nothing to do with the principles of democracy. No one likes it when they lose, but someone who believes in democracy accepts it when they lose and works towards the next election. Approving of subverting democracy means you don’t believe in democracy. Belief in democracy comes before belief in the policies of your chosen candidate. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2018, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-aim-for-a-lame-duck-power-grab-in-wisconsin/825459/46 "2018-12-03T20:30:20Z")
[An Exit From Trumpocracy](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/01/frum-trumpocracy/550685/) - David Frum > [@](#): > > If conservatives become convinced that they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will reject democracy. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2018, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-aim-for-a-lame-duck-power-grab-in-wisconsin/825459/47 "2018-12-03T20:59:28Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > I do remember them running and hiding in another state to block legislation Governor Walker was trying to pass. Doesn’t get much sleazier or cowardice than that. That was a RIGHT thing to do, because everything Walker wanted to do was BAD. And WRONG. And EVIL. And if anyone thinks I don’t understand Poe’s Law or I would have put some kind of smiley to indicate that I was being sarcastic, let me assure y’all that I understand Poe’s Law just fine. Those evaluations are 100% objectively accurate and consistent with observed reality. ---
**Author:** ![justrob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a9adbd/32.png) [@justrob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/justrob)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2018, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-aim-for-a-lame-duck-power-grab-in-wisconsin/825459/48 "2018-12-03T21:32:39Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > That was a RIGHT thing to do, because everything Walker wanted to do was BAD. And WRONG. And EVIL. Walker also never even hinted at these being on the slate of things he would do if elected. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2018, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-aim-for-a-lame-duck-power-grab-in-wisconsin/825459/49 "2018-12-03T21:41:23Z")
> [@dalej42](#): > > Weren’t the rules actually changed to prevent Governor Romney from appointing a Republican in the event that John Kerry won the presidency in 2004? I don’t remember a subsequent change. The 2004 change removed the governor’s power to appoint a replacement Senator, and set up a special election for a Senator to serve the remainder of the term. So under the terms of that change, the seat would stay vacant for the 4-5 months before the special election. But in 2009, when MA had a Democratic governor and Ted Kennedy was in failing health, they changed the law again so that the governor could appoint a replacement to serve the 4-5 months until the special election. At the time, there were exactly 60 Democratic Senators, resulting in a filibuster-proof majority. So Paul Kirk (D) was appointed to the seat until Scott Brown (R) was elected a few months later. It will be interesting to see what happens if Elizabeth Warren does throw her hat in the ring for 2020, given that MA currently has a Republican governor. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2018, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-aim-for-a-lame-duck-power-grab-in-wisconsin/825459/50 "2018-12-03T22:17:26Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Sure, because the Wisconsin legislature was preposterously gerrymanded. Evers sure got a lot more of the vote than the legislature Republicans did. > > Once you put partisan advantage over democracy, it’s time to admit you do not believe in democracy. And like most Republicans, he doesn’t care to dispute what you’ve said. He’s not interested in debating the merits of democracy and probably sees more popular forms of democracy as inherently ‘flawed,’ preferring flawed forms of democracy in which only the “qualified” voters participate. What matters isn’t whether the will of the people is respected – after all, they aren’t “real” Americans and “real” Wisconsinites. What matters is that those who were democratically elected to power a few years ago maintain that power. This is what authoritarian regimes do - use the legitimacy of their being elected to power to justify tinkering with the system so that it’s harder for a majority of people to vote them out once they’re there. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2018, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-aim-for-a-lame-duck-power-grab-in-wisconsin/825459/51 "2018-12-03T22:21:24Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > [An Exit From Trumpocracy](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/01/frum-trumpocracy/550685/) - David Frum It’s not just Trumpocracy, as the article labels it; this is a movement that’s decades in the making and Trump represents the arrival of that movement’s time. What it will take to get out of this is an abrupt realization among 60-70% of Americans that republicans act against the interests of most Americans. They will have to wake up and realize that voting Republican means voting for oligarchy. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2018, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-aim-for-a-lame-duck-power-grab-in-wisconsin/825459/52 "2018-12-04T00:27:20Z")
> [@justrob](#): > > It’s probably a good thing that I didn’t say it did not affect you at all. I said that it stripped collective bargaining from all the public unions except law enforcement and firefighters. Would still be just as happy with it if your union no longer had the ability to bargain for the group? Even with bargaining I still have to pay a percentage of my wage into the state retirement fund. Previously I did not have to do that. Doesn’t hurt me a bit and it’s better for state taxpayers that I/we do. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2018, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-aim-for-a-lame-duck-power-grab-in-wisconsin/825459/53 "2018-12-04T12:51:00Z")
Dems are considering lawsuits. [https://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/democrats-protest-threaten-lawsuits-wisconsin-republicans-push-lame-duck-power-grab](https://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/democrats-protest-threaten-lawsuits-wisconsin-republicans-push-lame-duck-power-grab) ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2018, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-aim-for-a-lame-duck-power-grab-in-wisconsin/825459/54 "2018-12-04T13:54:47Z")
[A picture of the Wisconsin gerrymander.](https://twitter.com/bcburden/status/1069773072587206656) Quite frankly, it’s a work of art. If I’d set out to create a gerrymander that perpetuated GOP control of the legislature, I doubt I could improve much on it, even if it were my full-time job. The GOP managed to create 30 districts that were basically 99-100% Democratic (compared with 8 districts that are that solidly GOP) which of course meant that if the state as a whole was 50-50, the GOP would get \>2/3 of the vote overall in the remaining 61 legislative districts. So even in a Democratic wave year like 2018, few of those seats would be winnable by Dems. The result, as we all know, was that Dems got 53% of the vote last month, but only 36 out of 99 seats. Impressive as hell, and also antidemocratic as hell. The trappings of democracy are still there, but the Dems would probably need about a 57% majority of the vote to eke out a bare majority of the legislature. The GOP has managed to fashion a legislature that is extremely resistant to the will of the people. That’s not democracy. And of course, now they are using that legislative majority that is all but immune to popular opposition, to strip the powers of the statewide offices that they can’t gerrymander. If you believe in democracy, what’s happening in Wisconsin is an abomination. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2018, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-aim-for-a-lame-duck-power-grab-in-wisconsin/825459/55 "2018-12-04T13:56:20Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Even with bargaining I still have to pay a percentage of my wage into the state retirement fund. Previously I did not have to do that. Doesn’t hurt me a bit and it’s better for state taxpayers that I/we do. All of us pay for each other’s benefits. When you buy a car, you’re paying for the wages and benefits of the automaker, their suppliers, the miners, the steel mill workers, on and on. When you visit the doctor, you’re paying the wages and benefits for the doctor, the staff, the janitors, etc. When you go to the grocery store, you’re paying the wages and benefits for the grocery store workers, the farmers, the shippers, etc. Yet somehow it seems that public employees (who pay their share of everyone else’s wages and benefits) are to be begrudged what they get from their employer and somehow they are not as entitled to a benefit package as any other worker. Strange logic. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2018, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-aim-for-a-lame-duck-power-grab-in-wisconsin/825459/56 "2018-12-04T14:08:19Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > It’s not just Trumpocracy, as the article labels it; this is a movement that’s decades in the making and Trump represents the arrival of that movement’s time. There’s a reaosn I’m seeing more and more conservatives online trotting out the bizarre old “America isn’t a democracy, it’s a republic” thing; they do not want it to be a democracy. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2018, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-aim-for-a-lame-duck-power-grab-in-wisconsin/825459/57 "2018-12-04T14:22:29Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Technically it could have delayed it indefinitely. > So you’re saying that running away and hiding in another state, rather than doing the job you were elected and paid to do is perfectly acceptable to you? > > Which proves what I said, both sides will take extreme measures to forward or protect their agenda. You defending what the Dems did is no different than me accepting what the Republicans are trying to do. **Do not pretend you are morally superior.** You are just on the opposite side of the same coin as I. If I condemned both the Democratic exit from the state and the Republican power grab, would you quarrel with the notion that I am morally superior to you? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2018, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-aim-for-a-lame-duck-power-grab-in-wisconsin/825459/58 "2018-12-04T14:27:48Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > There’s a reaosn I’m seeing more and more conservatives online trotting out the bizarre old “America isn’t a democracy, it’s a republic” thing; they do not want it to be a democracy. That’s the real truth, of course. But just to engage them, I would ask them: what do you mean, a republic? How should a republic work differently than a democracy? What are the guiding principles of how a ‘republic’ should govern itself? What’s going on in Wisconsin right now, what does that have to do with our being a ‘republic’? Should a republic have a nearly unassailable built-in bias for governance by one party rather than the other, regardless of what the people want? ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2018, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-aim-for-a-lame-duck-power-grab-in-wisconsin/825459/59 "2018-12-04T15:53:17Z")
“Regardless of what the people want” is the key phrase here. They know that what the people want is not what they want so they work to overcome the will of the people, and they currently feel bold enough (or threatened enough) that they’re willing to do so quite blatantly. They give justifications for their acts but everyone knows that they’re just justifications and everyone knows that everyone knows it. So what’s the solution? How does the majority assert it’s will when a minority has control and is gaming a flawed system in order to maintain that control? ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2018, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-aim-for-a-lame-duck-power-grab-in-wisconsin/825459/60 "2018-12-04T17:12:49Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > “Regardless of what the people want” is the key phrase here. More on this. This gerrymander is extremely resistant to the will of the people. Similar to the plot in the link posted by **RTFirefly** a few posts ago I looked at the district by district results found [here](https://elections.wi.gov/sites/default/files/County%20by%20County%20Report-2018%20Election-Assembly.pdf). We can calculate the net difference in two party vote share for each district or even all the districts together with the formula (D - R)/(D + R). For example, statewide there were 1,308,454 D votes and 1,103,521 R votes in assembly races so the net difference on two party vote share is (1308454 - 1103521)/(1308454 + 1103521) = 0.08496… = D + 8.5. When I did this calculation for all districts the thing that struck me was the sparseness of districts that fell in the even to D + 20 range. There are two. What does that mean? In an election that went D + 8.5 assembly seats went 36 D to 63 R. Had the electorate flipped and this election went R + 8.5 assembly seats would have gone 34 D to 65 R. It is pretty unlikely that we’re going to see an election outside ± 8.5 point range anytime soon so the range of achievable assembly outcomes for the foreseeable future is something like 34 - 36 D versus 63 - 65 R. The make up of the assembly barely responds at all to massive swings in the electorate that realistically achievable. Also by my analysis, which is far from perfect and limited to exactly one election, Wisconsin voters would have to go about D +21 in assembly voting to put the median seat in play. A two party vote split of 60 - 40 would probably fall just for of Democratic Party control of the assembly. On the other hand, Democrats did once make people wait two weeks to fuck over teachers eight years ago. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-aim-for-a-lame-duck-power-grab-in-wisconsin/825459.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-aim-for-a-lame-duck-power-grab-in-wisconsin/825459.md?page=4)