# Republicans are taking away my unemployment for my own good. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 8, 2013, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-are-taking-away-my-unemployment-for-my-own-good/675823 "2013-12-08T15:44:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2013, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-are-taking-away-my-unemployment-for-my-own-good/675823/321 "2013-12-24T21:42:59Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > This is an argument for the necessity of taxation, not against the claim that it is legalized theft. If it is needed then the point of calling it theft is really just rhetoric and nonsense. “In practice what you are proposing is an unpatriotic idea.” > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > No shit? Is that supposed to be a bad thing? Like Rudolph you did go down in History and you also flunked Social Studies in high school. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-are-taking-away-my-unemployment-for-my-own-good/675823/322 "2013-12-25T02:24:02Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > The government has brainwashed you into believing taxes pay for society. Taxes are for politicians to maintain power by purchasing constituencies and special interests. This part sounds like a conspiracy theory to justify turning cynicism into an argument. Maybe things are different where you are, but around here there is an awful lot of road work and public initiatives. I’m not denying there is corruption in government, but you omit the big picture here. > [@](#): > > Society is shorthand for the summation of voluntary interactions between individuals. Taxes undermine society by forcing individuals into involuntary arrangements. If you were really a mind-reader you’d see that not everyone pays taxes unwillingly. Some people see the value of schools, or a military, and so on. > [@](#): > > If his productivity was higher he would find a buyer for his labor at that higher level. Since the whole point of his post was that he finds himself unable to find a job at the higher level, his productivity is about equal to a burger flipper or ditch digger depending on what type of shape he is in. And this. You’re applying a religious fervor to your economic theory. Maybe it isn’t him; maybe macro forces (like the recession that forced millions out of work a few years ago) are to blame. Jumping to the conclusion that he’s equivalent to a burger flipper is unnecessarily rude. Just because your economic theory claims employment/income is only and always a function of one’s ‘productivity’ doesn’t mean that is truly the big picture. > [@](#): > > People like you repeat this silliness often, but it means nothing. You used to be against using force on people, then you grew older and more aggressive? That’s the evolution of a true enlightened individual, indeed. Really, it is churlish to cast taxation as ‘using force’. It is a social contract. Sure, there are enforcement mechanisms behind taxation, but those are one set of laws I can support (out of pragmatism, not aggression). Taxes certainly _can_ become oppressive, but as it stands today the wealthy have stuck their thumb on the scales to their outsized advantage. I think these arguments are an attempt to increase that advantage, or else something that gets repeated by suckers. > [@](#): > > Libertarians believe it is wrong for any group or individual to agress on the person or property of an individual. This is called the Non-Agression Principle. Any libertarian stance on policy follows from this principle. That sounds nice, but it requires massive omission to view it in the Libertarian light. You guys want to take everything down to the level of individual transactions but omit the fact that extreme disparities in wealth will result in an unjust (even, yes, aggressive) context for deal-making. You’ll have crowds of huddled masses brought one-by-one before the full weight and force of various corporations, forced to beg for a wage that will prevent them from starvation. We have a constitution in part as a reaction against the abuses of monarchies and aristocracies. Look around- there is plenty of wiggle room for the wealthy to become ever-more wealthy. Throwing ‘We the People’ under the bus altogether would be convenient for the very wealthiest, sure, but again in the big picture it is a hare-brained scheme that would screw over a majority of citizens. > [@](#): > > Yes it is more your fault than the taxpayers. I would advise you to no longer take the advice of the person who told you those degrees would lead to a full-time job in your chosen field. The fact that you took bad advice doesn’t give you the right to aggress on the property of your neighbor. Sounds like a false dichotomy to me. Do we only get to choose between it being the fault of the unemployed person or the taxpayer? What about the people with the power to shape the economic environment? If we were to do what Libertarians seem to want and eliminate all regulations whatsoever in the name of FREEDOM!!11!!!1!, what is to stop the very wealthy from creating conditions, for their own personal benefit of course, in which even more people are reduced to beggars than are already? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-are-taking-away-my-unemployment-for-my-own-good/675823/323 "2013-12-25T17:53:54Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > It is my belief that it is far better to be stupid than unkind and rude. Perhaps some intelligent people can be bragging? and I noticed spelling mistakes in your post now. Perhaps they are just typo’s? Did I misspell something? My bad. You also might note that your ignorant stance in this thread is both unkind and rude. And stupid and ignorant for that matter. Also, are you sure that typos should have a possessive s? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-are-taking-away-my-unemployment-for-my-own-good/675823/324 "2013-12-25T17:57:10Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I know there are limits to my knowledge, like any wise person. I am seldom frustrated because I am patient. You’re not wise. You’re an angry person who has grasped onto nonsense because it makes you feel better. Thanks for answering my question though, I guess you don’t know that you’re stupid. Have a good Christmas, and don’t think about what a miserable failure you’d be if there was no government saving you from yourself. \<3 ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-are-taking-away-my-unemployment-for-my-own-good/675823/325 "2013-12-26T06:43:39Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > It is my belief that it is far better to be stupid than unkind and rude. Perhaps some intelligent people can be bragging? and I noticed spelling mistakes in your post now. Perhaps they are just typo’s? Okay I am just not seeing the spelling mistakes in his post. Point them out for me? This is the kind of thing that will bug me until I see it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-are-taking-away-my-unemployment-for-my-own-good/675823/326 "2013-12-26T06:45:46Z")
Not in _his_ posts, no, you have to look in **Typo** ’s. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-are-taking-away-my-unemployment-for-my-own-good/675823/327 "2013-12-26T06:51:05Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Not in _his_ posts, no, you have to look in **Typo** ’s. No, I see that one ( in the monavis post). I meant monavis indicating that there were typos (no apostrophe) in lobohan’s post. Help me out, monavis! ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-are-taking-away-my-unemployment-for-my-own-good/675823/328 "2013-12-26T19:40:50Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Did I misspell something? My bad. You also might note that your ignorant stance in this thread is both unkind and rude. And stupid and ignorant for that matter. > > Also, are you sure that typos should have a possessive s? > > 😃 I am unaware that this is a spelling or English class, I did not state anything against any one personally on this board. If it bothers you that I had experienced a different life than you and acted differently to my circumstance than you , that is your problem not mine! I have spell check and if it is wrong then so be it! ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-are-taking-away-my-unemployment-for-my-own-good/675823/329 "2013-12-26T19:47:48Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > No, I see that one ( in the monavis post). I meant monavis indicating that there were typos (no apostrophe) in lobohan’s post. > > Help me out, monavis! As you will note, errors turn red. Spelling of some of the names were apparently misspelled but I do not worry about a misspelling and I do not believe anyone has to agree with me. I have the right to my ideas, and thoughts as well as other’s have theirs. Nor do I care if someone likes me or not. I a not bothered by someone else’s thoughts ,likes or dislikes, because someone disagrees with me does not make them stupid. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-are-taking-away-my-unemployment-for-my-own-good/675823/330 "2013-12-26T19:53:45Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > As you will note, errors turn red. Spelling of some of the names were apparently misspelled but I do not worry about a misspelling and I do not believe anyone has to agree with me. I have the right to my ideas, and thoughts as well as other’s have theirs. Nor do I care if someone likes me or not. I a not bothered by someone else’s thoughts ,likes or dislikes, because someone disagrees with me does not make them stupid. But you do not seem ok that people feel differently. You judge them very harshly if they aren’t as grateful as you expect them to be or aren’t willing to sacrifice as extremely as you were willing to do. You don’t seem to see any of these attitudes as problems and are ok will elderly people barely getting by. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-are-taking-away-my-unemployment-for-my-own-good/675823/331 "2013-12-26T20:35:10Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > But you do not seem ok that people feel differently. You judge them very harshly if they aren’t as grateful as you expect them to be or aren’t willing to sacrifice as extremely as you were willing to do. > > You don’t seem to see any of these attitudes as problems and are ok will elderly people barely getting by. I am mot asking them to be grateful as much as not to whine about what they get for free from others., I have volunteered at our Senior services and notice what a lot of seniors have to go through. I support our Senior Center and know the good work many people who volunteer do. I have never heard a Senior there ever complain about the food the Salvation Army provides. But I wonder if some on this board would? I guess the generations will always differ with some of each other. Some people will complain no matter what, and some will accept things with good graces. It takes all kinds to make a world! ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-are-taking-away-my-unemployment-for-my-own-good/675823/332 "2013-12-27T05:20:24Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Sounds like a false dichotomy to me. Do we only get to choose between it being the fault of the unemployed person or the taxpayer? What about the people with the power to shape the economic environment? If we were to do what Libertarians seem to want and eliminate all regulations whatsoever in the name of FREEDOM!!11!!!1!, what is to stop the very wealthy from creating conditions, for their own personal benefit of course, in which even more people are reduced to beggars than are already? This. The reason that I and many others took the advice and got those degrees years ago was that we were told that all the people retiring from colleges and universities would be replaced by grads like us. Well, they retired all right, but the admins figured out that just hiring a never-ending revolving door workforce of adjunct faculty instead of hiring profs full-time would save a ton of money. Or something. (The admins’ salaries, in the meantime, got bigger and bigger. Go figure.) This situation has led to a multitude of problems for the higher ed system. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-are-taking-away-my-unemployment-for-my-own-good/675823/333 "2013-12-27T05:38:15Z")
[quote=“WillFarnaby, post:319, topic:675823”] Originally Posted by vivalostwages View Post The Libertarians’ philosophy is downright bizarre: [http://www.lp.org/issues/poverty-and-welfare](http://www.lp.org/issues/poverty-and-welfare) Translation: I recently looked up libertarianism because it appeared in this thread. Quote: Apparently, they think gov’t assistance is so evil that just having any kind of job at all would be desirable and take care of anyone’s problems; Do you have a cite for that? Quote: that minimum wage should be whatever the hell an employer wants it to be Any wage is a voluntary agreement between employer and employee. Any price is a voluntary agreement between buyer and seller. * * * ``` Actually, I had read that page before and simply went back to it. ``` The opposition to government-anything is all over the site. Employers don’t set minimum wage; the US Dept. of Labor does. When people like Bachmann claim that ending minimum wage is the solution to unemployment, they ignore the plain fact that just having a crappy “job” with some tiny amount of pay is not enough to lift people out of poverty. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-are-taking-away-my-unemployment-for-my-own-good/675823/334 "2013-12-27T15:41:35Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Taxation is legalized theft. Jesus, you’re a one-trick pony and that trick is taking the same dump over and over. Here’s the deal- societies need things like infrastructure (roads, sewers utilities, etc.) and public services (police, fire, military, EMS, etc.). These things cost money. The most effective way to pay for them is through taxes. If you have a better system, let’s hear it. Whining about not keeping every fucking cent you earn is not a better system. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-are-taking-away-my-unemployment-for-my-own-good/675823/335 "2013-12-27T16:34:15Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > The most effective way to pay for them is through taxes. **If you have a better system, let’s hear it.** Whining about not keeping every fucking cent you earn is not a better system. [Try this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=690258&highlight=contribute). Warning, this guy should give lessons to [Aurthur Murray.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Murray#The_start_of_Arthur_Murray_Studios) Link for the benefit of the young’uns. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-are-taking-away-my-unemployment-for-my-own-good/675823/336 "2013-12-27T17:27:35Z")
Yeah, I’m old enough to know who Arthur Murray is. Been to that thread, read it. There will always be the chasm between the libertarian view that property rights trump all and viewpoint of everyone else. Silly lot, those libertarians. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-are-taking-away-my-unemployment-for-my-own-good/675823/337 "2013-12-27T17:28:58Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Peculiar universal ethic that every person is entitled to ownership of person and property. Ownership of person and property is not a natural right, but is guaranteed only by a government of laws instituted by men. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-are-taking-away-my-unemployment-for-my-own-good/675823/338 "2013-12-27T18:43:33Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Taxation is legalized theft. _“I like to pay taxes. With them, I buy civilization.”_ Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. And I most certainly agree. I find your point of view laughably naive. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-are-taking-away-my-unemployment-for-my-own-good/675823/339 "2013-12-27T20:16:54Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Not in _his_ posts, no, you have to look in **Typo** ’s. Mine? I don’t remember posting in this thread before now. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2013, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-are-taking-away-my-unemployment-for-my-own-good/675823/340 "2013-12-29T13:16:25Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > But you do not seem ok that people feel differently. You judge them very harshly if they aren’t as grateful as you expect them to be or aren’t willing to sacrifice as extremely as you were willing to do. > > You don’t seem to see any of these attitudes as problems and are ok will elderly people barely getting by. I am not judging all the people, just those who want to live off others and can have the same thing as the wealthy. I am referring to the people I know who feel they should have the best of everything and let other’s pay for it. If it came across as If I were judging all people who need help it is a wrong thing on my part, I I did write there are exceptions to all rules. Most people of my generation do not want help and do so only because they have no other choice. At least that is how people that I know and I have never heard any complaints about the food at the Senior citizen’s center near here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-are-taking-away-my-unemployment-for-my-own-good/675823.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-are-taking-away-my-unemployment-for-my-own-good/675823.md?page=18)