# Republicans destroying Democraat voter registrations? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 13, 2004, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-destroying-democraat-voter-registrations/268971 "2004-10-13T06:07:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-destroying-democraat-voter-registrations/268971/101 "2004-10-18T19:50:39Z")
Pointing out that your examples of individual malfeasance are not parallel to organization corruption is not a defense of the former. It’s only an attempt to get you to unstuff your head from your ass. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-destroying-democraat-voter-registrations/268971/102 "2004-10-18T21:53:18Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > It also doesn’t take much imagination to determine what candidate this voter registration drive is intended to support. It is the NAACP, after all, and they’re hardly neutral on the subject of President Bush. Please demonstrate that the people doing the voter registration drive knew that the registrations were fraudulent. I don’t see anything but one guy faking a lot of them so he’d get more crack. P.S. Personally, I dismissed your talk of Murphy because you won’t give me anything to go on but your word. Honestly, I don’t trust you that much. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-destroying-democraat-voter-registrations/268971/103 "2004-10-20T16:59:28Z")
[More from Pennsylvania:](http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04294/398767.stm) > [@](#): > > An ostensibly nonpartisan voter registration drive in Western Pennsylvania has triggered accusations that workers were cheated out of wages and given instructions to avoid adding anyone to the voter rolls who might support the Democratic presidential nominee. > Sproul & Associates, a consulting firm based in Chandler, Ariz., hired to conduct the drive by the Republican National Committee, employed several hundred canvassers throughout the state to register new voters. Some workers yesterday said they were told to avoid registering Democrats or anyone who indicated support for Democratic nominee John F. Kerry. ---
**Author:** ![Airblairxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Airblairxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airblairxxx)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-destroying-democraat-voter-registrations/268971/104 "2004-10-21T01:07:05Z")
“Sproul and Associates”, huh. Same outfit that is at work in Oregon (cited in the OP) and Nevada. And there is a [paper trail](http://www.opensecrets.org/parties/expenddetail.asp?txtName=SPROUL+%26+ASSOCIATES%2CINC&Cmte=RPC&cycle=2004) from these guys to the Republican National Committee. Well, it really **is** just like getting paid with crack cocaine, only on a different scale. ---
**Author:** ![Talon\_Karrde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Talon\_Karrde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Talon_Karrde)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-destroying-democraat-voter-registrations/268971/105 "2004-10-21T03:12:17Z")
Is it at all possible that the RNC didn’t know that Sproul and Associates would be destroying democrat registration forms? I was arguing this with some people, and they pulled that argument on me. I pretty much had to concede that they might not approve of S&A’s actions. Also, **Apos** , I’ve never heard about the Republican dirty tricks that you mentioned. Could you provide some cites? I’d like to know about what happened, and I have a hard time believing it without them. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-destroying-democraat-voter-registrations/268971/106 "2004-10-21T04:14:49Z")
> [@Talon Karrde](#): > > Is it at all possible that the RNC didn’t know that Sproul and Associates would be destroying democrat registration forms? > I was arguing this with some people, and they pulled that argument on me. I pretty much had to concede that they might not approve of S&A’s actions. Compartmentalization _is_ an important [part of good tradecraft:](http://www.useu.be/Terrorism/USResponse/May1902CheneyRiceTerroristAttacks.html) > [@](#): > > On the television program Fox News Sunday, Cheney noted that, within al Qaeda itself, only a very small number of people actually know what is planned. “Even in the September 11 attack,” he said, “there is some suggestion that some of the people who were actually on the planes, some of the hijackers, did not know it was a suicide mission.” ---
**Author:** ![Talon\_Karrde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Talon\_Karrde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Talon_Karrde)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-destroying-democraat-voter-registrations/268971/107 "2004-10-21T05:31:28Z")
What I meant was, what is the possibility that the RNC _all_ just thought S&A would be relatively honest? Perhaps S&A is acting independently. I have no idea whether that’s likely or not, so that’s why I’m asking. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-destroying-democraat-voter-registrations/268971/108 "2004-10-21T06:12:52Z")
Ah, the innocence of youth. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-destroying-democraat-voter-registrations/268971/109 "2004-10-21T13:02:13Z")
Well, I find it curious that you’re assuming, right off the bat, that the RNC must have known about the irregularities among its subcontractors, yet insist in the numerous examples I cited that they were isolated incidents, and not condoned by the Democrats in any way. Gee, I wonder why that is. :wally ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-destroying-democraat-voter-registrations/268971/110 "2004-10-21T13:45:32Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > The problem with your comparison, Mr. Moto, is that it isn’t valid. The article you link to has no suggestion of partisanship, it’s about people trying to make money illigitimately. > [@Squink](#): > > Compartmentalization is an important part of good tradecraft: > [@Talon Kaarde](#): > > What I meant was, what is the possibility that the RNC all just thought S&A would be relatively honest? Perhaps S&A is acting independently. > [@rjung](#): > > Ah, the innocence of youth. > [@Homebrew](#): > > Pointing out that your examples of individual malfeasance are not parallel to organization corruption is not a defense of the former. It’s only an attempt to get you to unstuff your head from your ass. Tell you what. Why don’t you all come up with a _coherent_ position regarding vote fraud. You know, one that depends on the rule of law and not what benefits one party more. This may require you to check your selective outrage. I’m not certain you can all do it. If you can, though, get back to me with something we can discuss intelligently. In the meantime, though, all of your motives are quite suspect. (Please note, **Talon Kaarde’s** quote included for context only.) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-destroying-democraat-voter-registrations/268971/111 "2004-10-21T14:02:39Z")
Excerpt from _Talking Points Memo_\*, from the estimable Josh Marshall, without which no citizen can hope to be well-informed… [http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week\_2004\_10\_17.php#003742](http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2004_10_17.php#003742) > [@](#): > > …Back on July 1st a source first told me that Allen Raymond, the man at the heart of the New Hampshire phone-jamming scandal, had fingered Jim Tobin as one of his accomplices. > > Tobin, as we’ve noted earlier, was the New England regional director of the Bush-Cheney campaign until he resigned last Friday. > > That’s more than three and a half months ago. The Bush campaign has known at least since then. And I suspect much longer. And yet they left him in the post. > > That means the campaign kept in place a man implicated in an election tampering scam that took place in the same part of the country over which the campaign had given him oversight. > > What does that tell you?.. (Links/cites available there) Oh, sorry, **Moto**. Didn’t mean to interrupt. You were talking about blind partisanship, yes? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-destroying-democraat-voter-registrations/268971/112 "2004-10-21T14:04:17Z")
If true, that’s truly scummy, and I hope appropriate penalties are thrown down. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-destroying-democraat-voter-registrations/268971/113 "2004-10-21T14:10:43Z")
> [@](#): > > Is it at all possible that the RNC didn’t know that Sproul and Associates would be destroying democrat registration forms? Perhaps. But Sproul IS part of the RNC. This isn’t some crackhead trying to get money by scamming registration drives, it’s one of the party’s regional chairmen. It wasn’t lowly employees acting on their own initiative: it was mangement who were shredding the forms, management who printed up the “if Democrat, do not register” instructions. Jim Tobin isn’t some random nobody: he was the New England regional of the Bush Cheney campaign. His connection to the phone jam scandal was not a secret: and yet they never fired him. They promoted him, until the fact that he was under investigation went public. That Moto doesn’t seem to be able to tell the difference between random instances and widespread patterns of official policy, and considers everything all the same, is pretty much all you need to know about him. Well, that and he’s a ----(insert whatever random insult won’t prompt him to burst into pissy tears and immediately start a thread asking that the word be banned from SDMB)---- Pretty fucking embarrasing stuff. Again, though he would have people think otherwise, everyone agrees that the various cases are all voter fraud. But there is a huge difference between the scattered and the systematic, between the actions of individual workers for private pro-Democratic groups and the RNC itself. Simply being able to cite one or two instances of corrupt Democrats is not in any sense an adequate or sensible response to the Republican party’s longstanding MO of voter suppression. It isn’t some random group that’s trying to post police officers outside of polling locations in African American neighborhoods. It’s the RNC doing it. It isn’t some random crackhead who is going to be inside the polling locations threatening voter after voter in Ohio to gum up the system and lengthen the lines: it’s RNC trained and approved lawyers doing what they are there to do. It wasn’t some random 527 who managed to ensure than a non-candidate (Ralph, who was NEVER legally on the ballot, but got printed on it anyway) would be on the ballot in Ohio, it was the RNC’s Sec of State Ken Blackwell, as part of a concerted effort to make the voting regulations as confusing as possible (BOE workers say they get new confusing and contradictory orders from him almost everyday) ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-destroying-democraat-voter-registrations/268971/114 "2004-10-21T14:24:11Z")
So I’m supposed to believe that the Democrats have clean hands here, despite abundent evidence to the contrary? Sorry. I don’t buy that for a second. Even if the worst the Democrats manage is a bunch of small-scale scandals (not true, but let’s assume) their unwillingness to fix the system to prevent these makes them a huge part of the problem. And that goes for their apologists on this board as well. Neither party has clean hands here, but the selective outrage shown by blind partisans in this thread is further indication that the Democratic Party only protests vote fraud when they’re not actively committing it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-destroying-democraat-voter-registrations/268971/115 "2004-10-21T15:40:41Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Even if the worst the Democrats manage is a bunch of small-scale scandals (not true, but let’s assume) their unwillingness to fix the system to prevent these makes them a huge part of the problem. 😕 “Fix the system” how? What institutional reforms do you think are needed, that the Dems are blocking? ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-destroying-democraat-voter-registrations/268971/116 "2004-10-21T15:42:22Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > If true, that’s truly scummy, and I hope appropriate penalties are thrown down. What penalty could be appropriate, when one has already irreparably undermined the democratic process? ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-destroying-democraat-voter-registrations/268971/117 "2004-10-21T16:08:28Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Neither party has clean hands here, but the selective outrage shown by blind partisans in this thread is further indication that the Democratic Party only protests vote fraud when they’re not actively committing it. I agree. Can you agree, that this election, 2004, it appears that the Republicans are far more engaged in these actions than the Democrats, and that appears more systematic and organized? Personally, I’d like to see all cases of fraud prosecuted, red or blue. I just think that this year it appears that the fraud coming from the Democratic side is coming from unorganized individuals, and the fraud coming from the Republican side is organized and linked to people in high positions in the party. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-destroying-democraat-voter-registrations/268971/118 "2004-10-21T16:12:21Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > So I’m supposed to believe that the Democrats have clean hands here, despite abundent evidence to the contrary? > > Sorry. I don’t buy that for a second. > > Even if the worst the Democrats manage is a bunch of small-scale scandals (not true, but let’s assume) their unwillingness to fix the system to prevent these makes them a huge part of the problem. And that goes for their apologists on this board as well. > > Neither party has clean hands here, but the selective outrage shown by blind partisans in this thread is further indication that the Democratic Party only protests vote fraud when they’re not actively committing it. On the evidence, the scale of Dem misdeeds pale next to the scale of Pubbie misdeeds. There is no evidence that the DNC is systematically seeking to subvert the democratic process wherever it can – plenty of evidence that the RNC is doing exactly that. I’m sure local guys pull dirty tricks on both sides – but at the national level, the Dems seem to be all about fair play, the Pubbies – NOT! ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-destroying-democraat-voter-registrations/268971/119 "2004-10-21T16:15:36Z")
On a side note, what the hell is ACORN thinking? Pay per registration. That just seems rife with possibilities for fraud. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-destroying-democraat-voter-registrations/268971/120 "2004-10-21T16:18:32Z")
ALL electoral misdeeds from both sides ought to be punished. I’m just astonished that **Mr. Moto** refuses to concede that the Dem misdeeds are individual acts but the GOP fraud is breing orchestrated at the executive level. GOP fraud is organized and systemic–why can’t you have the honesty to say so? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-destroying-democraat-voter-registrations/268971.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-destroying-democraat-voter-registrations/268971.md?page=7)