# Republicans; do you really believe Geo. Bush is in charge? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 24, 2004, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-do-you-really-believe-geo-bush-is-in-charge/241841 "2004-04-24T21:16:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-do-you-really-believe-geo-bush-is-in-charge/241841/21 "2004-04-25T02:14:25Z")
Right. So you reject all the hard evidence of his capability, and choose to believe he’s a boob, because you think he has poor speaking skills. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-do-you-really-believe-geo-bush-is-in-charge/241841/22 "2004-04-25T02:15:02Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > …snip… > > 5. **He became President of the United States.** > > snip… He didn’t win the presidency…he became the president. Are you admitting to him being appointed **Sam**? And as for point 7 about the creation of the Homeland Security czar…I won’t even go into how he fought creating it tooth and nail. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-do-you-really-believe-geo-bush-is-in-charge/241841/23 "2004-04-25T02:15:03Z")
8.0 Has seen unemployment reach the highest levels since the Great Depression. 9.0 Has zipped through an enormous budget surplus and has now plunged us into record budget deficits. 10.0 Has misrepresented “facts” in order to lead the nation into a senseless, unwarranted war. 11.0 Has appointed an attorney general who couldn’t win an election with a dead man as opponent and who is, IMHO, the most dangerous man to hold high public office in the history of this nation. 12.0 Has pushed through tax cuts that do not benefit the majority of American citizens, in spite of his claims to the contrary. 13.0 Has reduced funding to public education. 14.0 Has taken funding away from any family planning organization that happens to deal, however tenuously, with abortion. The lack of funding has caused the closure of several medical clinics in areas that need them the most, leaving large numbers of people without any scientific medical care at all. 15.0 Favors a Constitutional Amendment to officially deprive a portion of American citizens of what should be a fundamental right; such an Amendment would bar them from ever obtaining that right. 16.0 Will spend billions of dollars implementing a missile defense system that hasn’t been adequately tested, hasn’t performed during its few tests, and will (probably) never perform as advertised. 17.0 Has personally alienated large numbers of our (former) Allies, along with large numbers of the world’s population. I haven’t noticed, incidentally, the removal of 2/3 of Al Queda’s leadership—how do we know what or who constitutes that leadership and on what is your figure based? ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-do-you-really-believe-geo-bush-is-in-charge/241841/24 "2004-04-25T02:20:37Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > There ARE stupid people at Ivy Leagues. Please don’t confuse having lot of money and the right social connections with intelligence. Do you have any evidence that his money and social connections are what got him into these universities? Or that these are what allowed him to graduate? It sounds to me as though you’re making some very serious insinuations here. Can you back them up? ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-do-you-really-believe-geo-bush-is-in-charge/241841/25 "2004-04-25T02:27:17Z")
Bush was admitted to Yale under something called **Legacy.** Look it up. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-do-you-really-believe-geo-bush-is-in-charge/241841/26 "2004-04-25T02:30:49Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > ‘Name Recognition’? Are you serious? John McCain was better known that George W. Bush at the start of the campaign. Until right before the primaries, George W. Bush was only known outside of Texas as one of the sons of a one-term president. You don’t think having (nearly) the same name of a previous president might have placed his name recognition higher than McCain’s? ---
**Author:** ![zwaldd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a9adbd/32.png) [@zwaldd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zwaldd)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-do-you-really-believe-geo-bush-is-in-charge/241841/27 "2004-04-25T02:39:24Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > you reject all the hard evidence of his capability What hard evidence? Nothing you cited rules out that he’s just along for the ride. I would be skeptical of _any_ official that couldn’t speak knowledgeably to his office. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-do-you-really-believe-geo-bush-is-in-charge/241841/28 "2004-04-25T02:43:58Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > Bush was admitted to Yale under something called **Legacy.** > > Look it up. Prove it. Prove that this was indeed the reason he got into Yale. And while you’re at it, explain Harvard. Then explain how he managed to graduate from these fine institutions, since mere admission is no guarantee of graduation. Mind you, I expect you to provide substantial evidence for your claims. “Proof by assertion” is not a valid debating technique. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-do-you-really-believe-geo-bush-is-in-charge/241841/29 "2004-04-25T02:48:54Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > 8.0 Has seen unemployment reach the highest levels since the Great Depression. This one isn’t correct. What you probably meant to say is that, unless job growth is really steller in the next 6 months, he will be the first President since the Great Depression (Hoover) to preside over net job loss during his term. For good measure, I’ll throw a few more into the mix: 18.0 Has presided over the rollback and attempted rollback of countless environmental regulations and an unprecedented era of letting regulated industries essentially write (in a few cases, apparently literally write portions of) the regulations. 19.0 Has distorted, suppressed, and abused science in the formation of public policy to a degree that even some former appointees in the Nixon and Ford Administration have criticized him for this. See [here](http://www.ucsusa.org/global_environment/rsi/index.cfm). ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-do-you-really-believe-geo-bush-is-in-charge/241841/30 "2004-04-25T03:03:01Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Prove it. Prove that this was indeed the reason he got into Yale. > > And while you’re at it, explain Harvard. Then explain how he managed to graduate from these fine institutions, since mere admission is no guarantee of graduation. > > Mind you, I expect you to provide substantial evidence for your claims. “Proof by assertion” is not a valid debating technique. > [@](#): > > Bush was admitted to Yale in 1964 under an affirmative-action policy for children of alumni – what colleges call a “legacy” system. Legacy preferences still exist, of course, at most selective schools, including Michigan and Yale. But they no longer carry quite the same weight they did at schools such as Yale, Princeton University and Harvard University when Bush was applying to colleges in 1964. > > The president never released his high-school grades from Andover – an elite New England prep school that his father had also attended – or his SAT scores. But several years ago, The New Yorker got hold of Bush’s Yale records and discovered that he scored a 566 on the verbal SAT and a 640 on the math SAT – 180 points below the median score for his Yale classmates. > > From what is known about Bush’s academic performance at Andover, it is doubtful that he would have been admitted to Yale unless his father (at the time a Texas businessman running for the U.S. Senate in a race he eventually lost) and grandfather (Prescott Bush, a former Republican U.S. senator who represented Connecticut from 1952 to 1962) had been Yalies (from, respectively, the classes of 1948 and 1917). In fact, as a student, Bush studied in the Yale library’s Prescott Walker Bush Memorial Wing. [http://www.prospect.org/webfeatures/2003/01/dreier-p-01-27.html](http://www.prospect.org/webfeatures/2003/01/dreier-p-01-27.html) > [@](#): > > Perhaps that Andover dean also looked at Bush’s “solid” grades, which may or may not have exceeded the C average he later earned at Yale. In other words, despite Bush’s status as a Yale “legacy” from a very prominent and wealthy family, the dean was sufficiently naive to think he might not be admitted. > > Back then, “affirmative action” for the sons and daughters of alumni was a major factor in admissions at Yale and other selective colleges – and continues to be an important factor today. The children of alumni are about twice as likely to be accepted by Yale as other applicants. Whether their qualifications are twice as good, nobody seems to know. In the class of 2004, according to this interesting essay in the Yale Herald, the largest identifiable group of matriculates is from “families with some kind of Yale affiliation.” [http://www.salon.com/opinion/conason/2003/01/16/bush/](http://www.salon.com/opinion/conason/2003/01/16/bush/) > [@](#): > > And the impulse to extend that calmer time endured for many, even in the late 1960s. Only in the early years of the decade had Yale’s admissions policy begun to move vigorously away from its traditional reliance on well-born preparatory school graduates. (See “When Yale Changed,” Dec. 1999). The College between 1964 and 1968 could still be a comfortable place for those more interested in recreation than in political confrontation. And as a former administrator who had Bush as an advisee said recently, although George W. was an Andover graduate and a multigenerational Yale “legacy,” he seemed to feel that his childhood in Texas had set him apart socially from more polished Easterners with similar resumes. [http://www.yalealumnimagazine.com/issues/01\_02/bush.html](http://www.yalealumnimagazine.com/issues/01_02/bush.html) ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-do-you-really-believe-geo-bush-is-in-charge/241841/31 "2004-04-25T03:08:34Z")
_That’s_ what you were referring to, **Reeder**? That’s what you mean by “legacy”? Oh, for pity’s sake. That simply means that his parentage influenced his admission. This is nothing new, and it does not mean that Bush was unqualified for admission. Being the child of an alumnus can increase your chances, but it does not give you a free pass into an Ivy League school. Moreover, what of the other challenges that I leveled? How did he get into graduate school at Harvard, without the benefit of a legacy system? How did he complete his degrees at both of these venerable institutions, since mere admission is a far cry from completion. Oh, and if you say, “Well, his money helped him graduate,” or “His father helped him get those degrees,” then I expect you to provide some pretty serious evidence to prove those claims. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-do-you-really-believe-geo-bush-is-in-charge/241841/32 "2004-04-25T03:11:29Z")
There are none so blind as those that do not see. Or read linked articles. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-do-you-really-believe-geo-bush-is-in-charge/241841/33 "2004-04-25T03:12:38Z")
> [@zwaldd](#): > > I would be skeptical of _any_ official that couldn’t speak knowledgeably to his office. People doubt my sanity when I speak to my office… ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-do-you-really-believe-geo-bush-is-in-charge/241841/34 "2004-04-25T03:24:58Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > There are none so blind as those that do not see. > > Or read linked articles. Again, I ask: Explain how he got into Harvard graduate school, and graduated. Likewise, explain how he completed his degree at Yale. Your reply failed to address those issues, so please stop dancing around them. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-do-you-really-believe-geo-bush-is-in-charge/241841/35 "2004-04-25T03:30:49Z")
I answered the only thing I responded to. Do you admit he didn’t get into Yale on his own? ---
**Author:** ![Ace309](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ace309/32/1050_2.png) [@Ace309](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ace309)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-do-you-really-believe-geo-bush-is-in-charge/241841/36 "2004-04-25T03:33:04Z")
> [@](#): > > That “boob” has a bachelor’s degree from Yale and a Master’s from Harvard. We had a high-powered boob of our own in the Democratic nomination race this time. For an Army General and Rhodes Scholar who graduated from West Point first in his class, I certainly wouldn’t have trusted Wesley Clark to get through curves and around corners. He was a poor speaker and, while he didn’t get put in the hot seat like Bush has been lately, I can’t imagine him performing any better. Why no, I don’t have anything constructive to add. I just thought I’d point out that even the most yellow-dog partisans are probably aware of their candidate’s shortcomings. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-do-you-really-believe-geo-bush-is-in-charge/241841/37 "2004-04-25T03:34:41Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Right. So you reject all the hard evidence of his capability, and choose to believe he’s a boob, because you think he has poor speaking skills. Got it. You mean all the hard evidence that his family is politically connected and loaded? Is that what’s meant by “capability” in conservative circles nowadays? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-do-you-really-believe-geo-bush-is-in-charge/241841/38 "2004-04-25T03:42:57Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > _That’s_ what you were referring to, **Reeder**? That’s what you mean by “legacy”? Oh, for pity’s sake. > > That simply means that his parentage influenced his admission. This is nothing new, and it does not mean that Bush was unqualified for admission. Being the child of an alumnus can increase your chances, but it does not give you a free pass into an Ivy League school. > > Moreover, what of the other challenges that I leveled? How did he get into graduate school at Harvard, without the benefit of a legacy system? How did he complete his degrees at both of these venerable institutions, since mere admission is a far cry from completion. > > Oh, and if you say, “Well, his money helped him graduate,” or “His father helped him get those degrees,” then I expect you to provide some pretty serious evidence to prove those claims. C’mon, JThunder, give it up. Reeder’s cite bitch-slapped the hell out of your notion that Dubya got through Yale on his own recognizance. Anyone can see that, yet you think you can stand you ground and say, “Did SO!” You’re not doing your credibility any good here. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-do-you-really-believe-geo-bush-is-in-charge/241841/39 "2004-04-25T03:52:53Z")
You’re not paying attention. **Captor**. In case you didn’t notice, I never claimed that Bush got into Yale _entirely_ on his own recognizance. Rather, I’m pointing out that this does not demonstrate Bush to be unqualified, or unintelligent in any way. Indeed, even if we take **Reeder** ’s claim at face value, it still does not explain how Bush accomplished the even greater feats of completing his Yale degree, or completing graduate school at Harvard. In other words, **Reeder** ’s claim proves nothing. If anything, it underscores that fact that Bush DID complete graduate school at Harvard, without any legacy system to fall back on. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-do-you-really-believe-geo-bush-is-in-charge/241841/40 "2004-04-25T04:03:41Z")
How many years does it take to get a masters as a graduate student? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-do-you-really-believe-geo-bush-is-in-charge/241841.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-do-you-really-believe-geo-bush-is-in-charge/241841.md?page=3)