# Republicans: How would you reduce America's jobless rate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 7, 2010, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-how-would-you-reduce-americas-jobless-rate/542352 "2010-06-07T22:30:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![IdahoMauleMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/71c47a/32.png) [@IdahoMauleMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IdahoMauleMan)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-how-would-you-reduce-americas-jobless-rate/542352/121 "2010-06-13T00:29:25Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > And you would prefer to trust in some massive, impersonal government beurocracy? Of course they would. We’ve gone through this debate before, in the - Libertarian/fringe thread - FDA thread - Other Social Security and Medicare threads - Other deregulation threads Whack-A-Mole, Voyager and others clearly don’t trust themselves to make decisions regarding their own well-being. Whether the subject is retirement, which drugs to ingest, what food to buy and eat, whom to do business with, or what toys or automobiles to buy, they would prefer to sign over their rights - and give their money - to a government official to dictate what they can and cannot do. In fact, it seems like the more important and consequential the decision is to their well-being, the more anxious they are to sign over their rights and have someone in government tell them what’s acceptable and what isn’t. Not have the government provide advice or suggestions, mind you, that they can then voluntarily choose to follow or ignore…but a willingness to sign over complete, total power backed by use of force. Shocking, ain’t it? And I’ll bet $5 that they refer to themselves as enlightened ‘progressives’. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-how-would-you-reduce-americas-jobless-rate/542352/122 "2010-06-13T01:48:14Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Cut immigration. Ed Rubenstein writes: > > [VDARE.com](http://www.vdare.com/rubenstein/091013_nd.htm) Please stop referencing racist sources. I gave up when one of the links in the article refers to a “Report From Occupied America” and refers to Hispanics as invaders. Many sources that Vdare uses are just like that. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-how-would-you-reduce-americas-jobless-rate/542352/123 "2010-06-13T08:39:16Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > That ignores so many factors as to be ludicrous. Bush cut taxes and the .COM bubble burst, 9/11 happened, Enron imploded, etc. Of course the result was negative, except there was no correlation. Roosevelt raised taxes and hired on Americans to build roads to nowhere and statues everyplace, which is just hiding the unemployment rate by giving make-work to the unemployed. What’s wrong with government “make-work” projects? I don’t see anything wrong with employing Americans to repair bridges or to modernize the the Interstate highway. And what’s wrong with a statue? Have you seen Philadelphia? Art+Town = Very cool. ---
**Author:** ![erez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@erez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erez)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-how-would-you-reduce-americas-jobless-rate/542352/124 "2010-06-13T10:13:01Z")
> [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > Whack-A-Mole, Voyager and others clearly don’t trust themselves to make decisions regarding their own well-being. I’m not sure if that’s the case - I think they believe that **others** are not smart enough to make decisions for themselves, necessitating government intervention. I think if you asked them whether they themselves need these regulations, you would get a different answer. I think they consider themselves enlightened, unlike the unwashed masses. > [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > Whether the subject is retirement, which drugs to ingest, what food to buy and eat, whom to do business with, or what toys or automobiles to buy, they would prefer to sign over their rights - and give their money - to a government official to dictate what they can and cannot do. How about when the subject is whether people should be able to learn information about their own bodies without government regulations and interference? [The FDA doesn’t think that’s such a hot idea.](http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2010-06-11/business/ct-biz-0612-brf1-genetic-tests-20100611_1_genetic-tests-fda-medical-devices) I’m sure it wouldn’t be difficult to find posters supporting the FDA’s stance on this matter. However, if you ask them if they themselves could possibly be stupid enough to make a bad medical decision based on such information, I bet they would never think it would happen. ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-how-would-you-reduce-americas-jobless-rate/542352/125 "2010-06-13T16:00:10Z")
> [@erez](#): > > How about when the subject is whether people should be able to learn information about their own bodies without government regulations and interference? [The FDA doesn’t think that’s such a hot idea.](http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2010-06-11/business/ct-biz-0612-brf1-genetic-tests-20100611_1_genetic-tests-fda-medical-devices) I’m sure it wouldn’t be difficult to find posters supporting the FDA’s stance on this matter. Do you have any idea exactly _what_ the “FDA’s stance on this matter” is? And more specifically, why? I certainly don’t, outside the fact that, per your cite, the FDA wants to consider DNA testing kits as medical devices. Your cite doesn’t say much else besides, and “medical device” in and of itself seems like a proper classification to me. Can you inform me/us, or were you just partaking in some libertarian weenie-whining? ---
**Author:** ![IdahoMauleMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/71c47a/32.png) [@IdahoMauleMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IdahoMauleMan)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-how-would-you-reduce-americas-jobless-rate/542352/126 "2010-06-13T16:51:17Z")
> [@erez](#): > > I’m not sure if that’s the case - I think they believe that **others** are not smart enough to make decisions for themselves, necessitating government intervention. I think if you asked them whether they themselves need these regulations, you would get a different answer. I think they consider themselves enlightened, unlike the unwashed masses. Ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding! We have a winner! But I think it’s a little more nuanced than that. And here’s the rub… Your claim above might indeed be what our SDMB friends say, from time to time. If you look at most of the debate threads, government protection is usually invoked with concerns about ‘society’ and ‘hucksters tricking the unsuspecting’ and other vague, wooly statements about Somebody Evil, somewhere, victimizing some poor unsuspecting bloke, somewhere. The unsuspecting are never identified. The poor blokes are never named. It’s just assumed that there are plenty of them - out there, somewhere - who need to be protected. But I would claim this is a smokescreen. That is _exactly_ why I ask people individually on these threads what _they_ would do. And what decisions _they_ would make. Usually, they evade the question or re-direct it to a tangent. But every so often they actually answer. Go search on the “Will the Libertarian Party ever be more than a fringe movement?” thread. As well as the FDA thread that Sam Stone started shortly thereafter. In there we got to the root of the issue…if you look at the responses and the language used, it is clear that our colleagues **don’t trust themselves** to make these types of decisions. They are terrified of the accountability that comes with that freedom. They would prefer to bathe in the warm psychological waters of government-promised security, even though you and I know that no such thing exists. ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-how-would-you-reduce-americas-jobless-rate/542352/127 "2010-06-13T17:26:36Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Please stop referencing racist sources. I gave up when one of the links in the article refers to a “Report From Occupied America” and refers to Hispanics as invaders. Many sources that Vdare uses are just like that. Guilt by association is a lousy critique. Immigration restriction in times of economic hardship is a policy option that any country that accepts large numbers of immigrants has and will entertain. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-how-would-you-reduce-americas-jobless-rate/542352/128 "2010-06-13T19:16:01Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > Guilt by association is a lousy critique. Immigration restriction in times of economic hardship is a policy option that any country that accepts large numbers of immigrants has and will entertain. It was not just by checking their history: [http://www.splcenter.org/vdare-foundation](http://www.splcenter.org/vdare-foundation) I did check before the sources and data they use, they are unreliable even before the racist bit is considered. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-how-would-you-reduce-americas-jobless-rate/542352/129 "2010-06-13T20:02:46Z")
Its not so much that we want elitist, latte-swilling, college-educated Birkenstockers making decisions for the “great unwashed”. We just don’t want the “great unwashed” making decisions for us. Its sort of like that, a “we or them” choice to be made. And we don’t want to go bumping over their corpses in our Prius because Michelle Bachmann told them that cholera was just a liberal myth. Nor do we want our children thinking that \*The Flintstones \*was a documentary. ---
**Author:** ![IdahoMauleMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/71c47a/32.png) [@IdahoMauleMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IdahoMauleMan)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-how-would-you-reduce-americas-jobless-rate/542352/130 "2010-06-13T20:15:23Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Its not so much that we want elitist, latte-swilling, college-educated Birkenstockers making decisions for the “great unwashed”. We just don’t want the “great unwashed” making decisions for us. Its sort of like that, a “we or them” choice to be made. And we don’t want to go bumping over their corpses in our Prius because Michelle Bachmann told them that cholera was just a liberal myth. Nor do we want our children thinking that \*The Flintstones \*was a documentary. I don’t have the slightest idea what any of the above statement means. If you don’t want any of the “great unwashed” making decisions for you, it’s actually remarkably easy…don’t vote them the power to do so. Then only you are accountable for decisions that affect yourself. That’s the essence of the Libertarian philosophy. It’s easy, ain’t it? In one fell swoop, you can take all your money back from property taxes, sales taxes, most of income and wealth taxes and make decisions for yourself about your children’s schooling, what products you can buy, and how to take care of yourself at retirement. It lowers the cost of employment for employers (the subject of the original OP) and you never have to worry about the “great unwashed” making decisions for you on these matters, ever again. See? Welcome to the Libertarian party. We’re always glad to have another smart person on board. But methinks that deep down inside, based on your multitude of posts from other threads, that you actually _do_ want people making decisions for you. Just not bad people. Not mean people. Not dumb people. Not people like George Bush, or Ronald Reagan, or anybody mean or evil like that. You want a good person. A smart person. A person you trust. A benevolent savior and dictator, so to speak, to wrap his arms around you and take care of you. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-how-would-you-reduce-americas-jobless-rate/542352/131 "2010-06-13T20:30:13Z")
> [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > I don’t have the slightest idea what any of the above statement means… And yet, by some miracle, you know exactly what I think, and why. That mouse in your pocket, is his voice eerily reminiscent of Orson Welles? ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-how-would-you-reduce-americas-jobless-rate/542352/132 "2010-06-13T20:58:44Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Not in the sense that they are meant to deceive (well, outside the masses who are more concerned with Dancing With The Stars than our country going down the fiscal tubes)… rather in the sense that they are a wealth transfer from those of working age (less wealth) to seniors (more wealth). It’s well known that people get people get far more money out than they put in, even accounting for the ‘investment value’ over time. > > Like all [Ponzi Schemes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme), SS “pays returns to separate investors from their own money or money paid by subsequent investors, rather than from any actual profit earned.” SS is an insurance program. Like other insurance programs it takes in money which it then pays out to claimants, although it doesn’t take a chunk of payments in profit. If SS is a Ponzi scheme then so is every insurance scheme or fund in existence. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-how-would-you-reduce-americas-jobless-rate/542352/133 "2010-06-13T21:08:50Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Isn’t that sweet. But it doesn’t change the fact that as a matter of dollars and cents, this “pension” has had its funds pilfered by the corporation, and it will run out of money. This is a matter of math, really. It’s not some right or left issue–SS cannot sustain itself. Its own @#$%ing cite says so. It’s a Ponzi scheme. It’s the poster child of irresponsible government programs, voted in by imbeciles because some future generation or administration will have to deal with the devastating economic catastrophe this will produce, when millions of people who have “invested” in it cannot be paid their “stipend.” Contrary to the belief of many in this country, the government can’t magically keep running up debt and printing money as a strategic solution to, well, everything. According to the CBO SS can pay all benefits for the next 34 years with no changes in its current setup or funding level whatsoever. [http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/104xx/doc10457/08-07-SocialSecurity\_Update.pdf](http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/104xx/doc10457/08-07-SocialSecurity_Update.pdf) And after that it can continue paying 75% of benefits indefinitely. But because wages go up faster than prices, and because SS is indexed to wages, 75% of SS benefits in 34 years from now will give a greater standard of living to 2044 retirees than 100% of 2010 benefit levels give to 2010 retirees. The actual shortfall in SS over the next 75 year period between expected revenues and expected payments is only 1% of current GDP anyway. A modest change in funding and cuts in benefits will secure SS for generations to come. When you look at pensions and how to fund the retirees of nations around the world it’s no wonder that so many countries, especially countries that have privatised their pension systems with disastrous results like Britain, are now looking to adopt a SS-like system. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-how-would-you-reduce-americas-jobless-rate/542352/134 "2010-06-13T21:15:15Z")
Sam Stone, when you manage to reply to this thread can you let us know how you and the Heritage Foundation feel about the austerity measures that are currently all the rage in western countries. You’re pretty comprehensively on the record as saying fiscal stimulus doesn’t work and that governments need to cut their spending to produce economic growth but can you please let us know how you both feel about the austerity measures currently being taken in America, Europe etc. and specifically how you both think the austerity cuts in government spending being taken now and cuts in the pipeline will affect the economic recovery. Many thanks. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-how-would-you-reduce-americas-jobless-rate/542352/135 "2010-06-13T21:55:17Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Like all [Ponzi Schemes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme), SS “pays returns to separate investors from their own money or money paid by subsequent investors, rather than from any actual profit earned.” You’re leaving out the part about a Ponzi scheme’s returns being fraudulent, actually just the investments made by new entrants, a number that must continually increase in order to prevent collapse of the scheme. As you might have found out had you read your own damn link past the first sentence. To use the term in connection with Social Security is just another way of claiming it’s fraudulent, and inevitably doomed to collapse. _Neither is true_. Do you know that, or is it just as much fun to snicker about as it is to poke fun at the sign-wavers at Fox rallies for using a term they picked themselves? :dubious: **Dick** , I’m just as interested as you are in an explanation of how Keynesian approaches cannot work, but only the opposite approach can, \*despite \*the evidence of experience. I don’t think we’ll get anything from him that has any factual foundation, though, we rarely do except by chance. ---
**Author:** ![IdahoMauleMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/71c47a/32.png) [@IdahoMauleMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IdahoMauleMan)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-how-would-you-reduce-americas-jobless-rate/542352/136 "2010-06-13T22:21:45Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You’re leaving out the part about a Ponzi scheme’s returns being fraudulent, actually just the investments made by new entrants, a number that must continually increase in order to prevent collapse of the scheme. As you might have found out had you read your own damn link past the first sentence. > > To use the term in connection with Social Security is just another way of claiming it’s fraudulent, and inevitably doomed to collapse. _Neither is true_. Do you know that, or is it just as much fun to snicker about as it is to poke fun at the sign-wavers at Fox rallies for using a term they picked themselves? :dubious: Maybe you can help me with this thought experiment, then. Since I’m so stupid. 1. Why don’t we stop all FICA and Medicare witholding right now…or at least, make it voluntary for the workers. For example, I would be willing to sign up for zero FICA with-holding from my check, and I would ask for zero additional payouts from SS when I retire. 2. That way we can immediately lower the cost of employment to employers by 15+% in one fell swoop and give workers control and ownership over their own retirement assets, if they choose voluntary with-holding. 3. Then, we can pay all of our current SS and Medicare requirements for current retirees out of the ‘trust fund’ that currently exists for those two programs. Why can’t we do that? What is wrong with that picture? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-how-would-you-reduce-americas-jobless-rate/542352/137 "2010-06-13T22:28:54Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > Sam Stone, when you manage to reply to this thread can you let us know how you and the Heritage Foundation feel about the austerity measures that are currently all the rage in western countries. You’re pretty comprehensively on the record as saying fiscal stimulus doesn’t work and that governments need to cut their spending to produce economic growth but can you please let us know how you both feel about the austerity measures currently being taken in America, Europe etc. and specifically how you both think the austerity cuts in government spending being taken now and cuts in the pipeline will affect the economic recovery. Many thanks. I’m generally in favor of them, with the caveat that I haven’t looked at the specific plans in detail. Do you want to rehash the many arguments that we’ve had regarding the efficacy of fiscal stimulus? Or was there something specific to the current measures that concern you? Aside from my general arguments about Keynesianism, there are some specific problems with implementing it in the current situation. Specifically, the markets have pretty clearly shown that there is a very high risk premium right now due to debt worries. This isn’t 1950, where you might be able to get away with temporary high deficits because the fiscal future looks rosy. Anyone can see that the fiscal situation of governments is getting out of hand’ and that all the trends point in the direction of it getting significantly worse. I don’t think Europe has ouch choice other than to start getting it’s fiscal house in order right now, because it doesn’t have the kind of leeway the US has. It’s entitlement problem is much more severe, and it doesn’t have the status as the world’s reserve currency to cushion it from capital flight. I’ll post more in a bit. I’m typing this on an iPad, which is kind of painful. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-how-would-you-reduce-americas-jobless-rate/542352/138 "2010-06-13T22:42:03Z")
Just a second, there! They let Canadians have iPads?! ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-how-would-you-reduce-americas-jobless-rate/542352/139 "2010-06-13T22:48:00Z")
Well, you have to pay for them. Bloody capitalists. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-how-would-you-reduce-americas-jobless-rate/542352/140 "2010-06-13T22:50:06Z")
Just a second, there! We’re paying for your fucking iPads?! Anne Murray, Celine Dion, and now this outrage?! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-how-would-you-reduce-americas-jobless-rate/542352.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-how-would-you-reduce-americas-jobless-rate/542352.md?page=8)