# Republicans: How would you reduce America's jobless rate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 7, 2010, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-how-would-you-reduce-americas-jobless-rate/542352 "2010-06-07T22:30:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-how-would-you-reduce-americas-jobless-rate/542352/161 "2010-06-14T15:50:59Z")
> [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > You would prefer to sign over your rights, and your money, to someone else to dictate to you how to manage your assets? How do you think pensions, life insurance (or really any insurance) and annuities work? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-how-would-you-reduce-americas-jobless-rate/542352/162 "2010-06-14T15:57:48Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Isn’t that sweet. But it doesn’t change the fact that as a matter of dollars and cents, this “pension” has had its funds pilfered by the corporation, and it will run out of money. What pilfering? How did the US government “pilfer” the social security funds? The fund may not have enough assets to fulfill its obligations unless we do seomthing about it (like eliminate the SS cap or raise retirement ages or reduce benefits or impose a SS surcharge on deferred compensation (see stock options)). > [@](#): > > It’s a Ponzi scheme. You keep saying that, I don’t think you are doing faithful to the entire meaning of the word when you apply it to social security but I suspect you intend the entire meaning of teh word when you use it as shorthand for social security. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-how-would-you-reduce-americas-jobless-rate/542352/163 "2010-06-14T16:04:00Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Since you included no cites I’m having a hard time following where you are getting your numbers. That noted right-wing, mouthbreathing, librul-hatin’ mouthpiece the [New York Times](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/25/business/economy/25social.html) says that > > This is not 34 years away. And you cannot necessarily count on even those rosy estimates > > You say that it will never go bankrupt. Maybe in the legal sense, but your solution is… we just pay out some reduced percentage of what was ‘promised’ to retirees? Tell you what, make it 5% of what was promised. Problem solved. > > Or did you want to stoke inflation and just print more money? Borrow more from the Chinese? Run Greece-like deficits and be faced with their situation in 5-10 years? > > We’re paying today’s recipients with today’s ‘investors’. That makes it a Ponzi scheme. Since you think it’s an insurance program, I could almost agree with you if the US were running a surplus - that would be the equivalent of the cash reserves a Nationwide would be required to hold to pay claimants. Or if the money were generated in some revenue-producing source (again, like a private insurance company would do). Neither is the case: Instead, we spend it on current stuff. I already posted a link to a CBO report that says 2044 in an earlier post, you could try reading what I post. The worst-case scenario from the SS trustees is 2037 (assuming rubbish economic growth up tilll then, their medium-case scenario is around 2050) so let’s split the difference and say the trust fund will be exhausted in 2040. There’s no need to pay 5% to retirees. The CBO makes clear that they can be paid 83% of benefits in 2040ish (maybe 2050ish and if we get massive economic growth between then and now then in perpetuity) once the trust fund is exhausted. And because SS benefits are linked to wages and because wages rise faster than prices then 83% of 2040 benefits will give 2040 retirees a far higher standard of living than 100% of 2010 benefits give to 2010 retirees. No need to stoke inflation, print money or anything like that. And yes, we’re paying today’s recipients with today’s investors. That’s the way SS has always worked, that’s the way it was set up to run. It’s a social insurance scheme, managed by actuaries and investment managers like every other insurance fund. Except this one doesn’t take a profit. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-how-would-you-reduce-americas-jobless-rate/542352/164 "2010-06-14T16:05:41Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Please explain how so. > > The flip side of that question is how much can the government continue to spend paying for entitlements, social services and whatnot until it is no longer sustainable? If we get health insurance spending under control and make modest adjustments to SS (or if we get good economic growth over the next few decades, just leave it alone) then both programs are chill. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-how-would-you-reduce-americas-jobless-rate/542352/165 "2010-06-14T16:29:58Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Nice try **Dick** (and **Elvis** ), but most people understand that the fund will run out of money way too soon; and when it does (indeed, even before it does thanks to those dollars used for general expenditures) it will be a huge drain on the other government spending that so many on the SMDB love so much. No one should ever have been under the delusion that the system would run forever on autopilot. Were you? Or anybody else you can name? If you keep driving a car without ever changing the oil, eventually it’s going to stop running. Is that the car’s fault? Is it just impossible to make a car properly? Should we just not bother to try making cars at all because there isn’t one that can do without maintenance? Of course not. SS needs maintenance. The responsible thing is to provide it, not complain about it, and try to use the issue to pretend there is no value in this “community” and “responsibility” stuff whose mention so irritates a certain portion of our country. > [@](#): > > The problem is, SS (and Medicare) aren’t insurance programs as we normally understand them How is that a problem? It has always been a transfer-payments clearinghouse with some cash reserves on hand, nothing more. Its obligations are essentially all met by tax payments, not investments. But that’s still insurance. > [@](#): > > the Treasury uses those funds to pay for normal Government operations (which more and more frequently is paid out in the form of entitlements). This is exactly what makes it a Ponzi scheme. :rolleyes: Just tell us, do you know what a pyramid scheme is? Or that that was what Ponzi was doing, and how it was therefore fraudulent? Or how SS is not a pyramid and not fraudulent? Please try to do better than a 12-year-old level here, okay? > [@](#): > > This president only makes the problem worse, by increasing health care entitlements and suggesting we give $250 ‘COLA’ checks Not COLA, filling the doughnut hole. That used to be a popular position among Republicans, too, even though they never did it. > [@](#): > > Personally, I think that the biggest problem with SS is that it can’t decide if it’s supposed to be a pension, as we understand that word, or a traditional entitlement you get for hitting 65. Until we figure that out, we’re toast. It’s a pension you’re entitled to. What can’t you figure out? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-how-would-you-reduce-americas-jobless-rate/542352/166 "2010-06-14T16:33:34Z")
> [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > Dude, do you realize you just defined a Ponzi scheme in P1 and P2 above, yet continue to insist it isn’t? You too. Show us you know what a Ponzi, AKA pyramid, scheme is. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > I’ll be happy to take care of myself, with the assets that my 15% with-holding is purchasing for me. Until the market crashes, then you’ll be demanding a government bailout. Don’t kid yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-how-would-you-reduce-americas-jobless-rate/542352/167 "2010-06-14T16:35:17Z")
> [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > That sounds great. Then my plan above should work, shouldn’t it? > > Stop taking 15% from all of the current workers via their FICA with-holding, and pay out current retirees out of the reserves. We have $2 trillion in reserves, after all…don’t we? You can’t let people opt out, you have to have everybody paying in to have enough revenues to pay the bills. ---
**Author:** ![IdahoMauleMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/71c47a/32.png) [@IdahoMauleMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IdahoMauleMan)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-how-would-you-reduce-americas-jobless-rate/542352/168 "2010-06-14T16:50:50Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > How do you think pensions, life insurance (or really any insurance) and annuities work? You voluntarily choose to invest your assets with a company of your choice. And usually, for most schemes, you have the flexibility of switching your money to another company if you choose to do so. I didn’t realize that was so hard to understand. ---
**Author:** ![IdahoMauleMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/71c47a/32.png) [@IdahoMauleMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IdahoMauleMan)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-how-would-you-reduce-americas-jobless-rate/542352/169 "2010-06-14T16:51:53Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > You can’t let people opt out, you have to have everybody paying in to have enough revenues to pay the bills. EXACTLY! Don’t you realize that you and Elvis1Lives keep contradicting yourselves? There are no reserves. It’s an accounting fiction. It is a Ponzi scheme. ---
**Author:** ![IdahoMauleMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/71c47a/32.png) [@IdahoMauleMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IdahoMauleMan)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-how-would-you-reduce-americas-jobless-rate/542352/170 "2010-06-14T16:53:54Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > If you redefine Poniz schemes to mean whatever Ponzi schemes and socials ecurity has in commmon and ignore the ways in which Social security is not like a Ponzi scheme. > > Because fraud is not a meaningful element of the definition of Ponzi schemes? If Madoff had told his investors up front that their returns were coming from the investments of future investors, do you think he would be in jail today? You’re just trying to improperly use a derogatory term to describe something you don’t like. > > For example, just because I don’t believe in premarital sex doesn’t mean i get to call women who engage in premarital sex hookers (they have a lot in common in teh sense taht they both have sex outside of marriage). It’s actually worse than a Ponzi scheme. You are correct in that most Ponzi schemes involve an element of fraud - meaning, someone voluntarily agreed to invest their money, and then were deceived due to the ‘House of Cards’ nature of the scheme. SS is actually worse. The House of Cards is still there, and for everyone to see. But the voluntary part is gone. It’s mandatory. We are _forced_ to participate. So it’s actually a worse type of animal. It’s a Forced Ponzi scheme. I’m going to coin the term “Fonzi” scheme to describe it from now on. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-how-would-you-reduce-americas-jobless-rate/542352/171 "2010-06-14T17:03:59Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > :rolleyes: Just tell us, do you know what a pyramid scheme is? Or that that was what Ponzi was doing, and how it was therefore fraudulent? Or how SS is not a pyramid and not fraudulent? Please try to do better than a 12-year-old level here, okay? I’ll let the 12 year olds at [CATO](http://www.socialsecurity.org/daily/05-11-99.html) address that one. > [@](#): > > Just like Ponzi’s plan, Social Security does not make any real investments – it just takes money from later “investors,” or taxpayers, to pay benefits to earlier, now retired, taxpayers. Like Ponzi, Social Security will not be able to recruit new “investors” fast enough to continue paying promised benefits to previous investors. Because each year there are fewer young workers relative to the number of retirees, Social Security will eventually collapse, just like Ponzi’s scheme. > [@](#): > > It’s a pension you’re entitled to. What can’t you figure out? No, not necessarily. If it were a pension, then you’d get back your money based on some kind of return. But if we’re talking about reducing benefits, making more benefits subject to tax, delaying payout/retirement, etc., then we’re acting as though SS is an entitlement, and one that can be monkey’d with as needed to delay disaster. This is the concept of autopilot and maintenance I guess you were trying to clumsily make earlier. ---
**Author:** ![IdahoMauleMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/71c47a/32.png) [@IdahoMauleMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IdahoMauleMan)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-how-would-you-reduce-americas-jobless-rate/542352/172 "2010-06-14T17:10:11Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You too. Show us you know what a Ponzi, AKA pyramid, scheme is. :rolleyes: > > Until the market crashes, then you’ll be demanding a government bailout. Don’t kid yourself. Oh thanks. As discussed above, you are choosing the (extremely) weak debating tactic of claiming that I don’t know what’s good for me, and I’d better be thankful for the government sponsored schemes that exist when I inevitably screw up. I’ll be fine, thanks. Really I will. Save yourself some brainpower and stop worrying about me. But that’s not really it, is it? You’re actually worried about _yourself_, and covering that up by claiming you’re worried about someone else. See erez’s comments above. Spot on. Sort of like the guy who goes into buy something embarassing at a pharmacy and claims that it’s for a ‘friend’. If the market crashes, and the real wealth of the country evaporates, where do you think the government will get the wealth to ‘bail us out’? The government cannot create wealth. It can only confiscate it and transfer it, backed by use of force. Where do you think ‘bailouts’ come from? From where does the government get the resources to ‘bail’ people out? ---
**Author:** ![IdahoMauleMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/71c47a/32.png) [@IdahoMauleMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IdahoMauleMan)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-how-would-you-reduce-americas-jobless-rate/542352/173 "2010-06-14T17:13:14Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You too. Show us you know what a Ponzi, AKA pyramid, scheme is. :rolleyes: > > . All I did was play back your own definition. I used your own rules. Didn’t you see that? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-how-would-you-reduce-americas-jobless-rate/542352/174 "2010-06-14T17:17:16Z")
> [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > But you, apparently like so many others are willing to believe a government official and sign over you rights and your money because it makes you feel ‘safer’. You are willing to trade liberty for a promise of security. You will get neither. You seem to be infusing way too much symbolism to the notion of taxation. I don’t feel like the social security tax is depriving me of liberty, I feel like its depriving me of 6.2% of the first $106,800 of my earnings or $6,621.60 and a similar amount of my wife’s earnings, or about $1000/month. Trying to shoehorn social security taxes into the “sacrificing liberty for security” notion is kind of far fetched isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-how-would-you-reduce-americas-jobless-rate/542352/175 "2010-06-14T17:21:52Z")
> [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > You voluntarily choose to invest your assets with a company of your choice. And usually, for most schemes, you have the flexibility of switching your money to another company if you choose to do so. > > I didn’t realize that was so hard to understand. I thought for most life insurance policies and annuities you would take a loss for opting out. I think the main difference is that the insurance and annuity providers are supposed to be investing and growing the money to ensure the payout. SS money doesn’t really accrue directly, although it is supposed to promote overall growth by alleviating problems that would have to be paid for more directly. Many people have the mistaken belief that SS payments were put away and earning interest like a life insurance policy. A lot of that misimpression came from politicians advertising the system as working that way. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-how-would-you-reduce-americas-jobless-rate/542352/176 "2010-06-14T17:23:44Z")
> [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > Welcome to the Libertarian party. We’re always glad to have another smart person on board. Who’s the other one? 🆒 > [@](#): > > [You want a good person. A smart person. A person you trust. A benevolent savior and dictator, so to speak, to wrap his arms around you and take care of you. And don’t you want government to be so irrelevant that it doesn’t matter who is in power? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-how-would-you-reduce-americas-jobless-rate/542352/177 "2010-06-14T17:24:14Z")
> [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > All I did was play back your own definition. I used your own rules. Didn’t you see that? No, you obviously do not know what a pyramid scheme is, nor do you have any interest in finding out. It would take away too much of the fun of denunciation, it seems. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-how-would-you-reduce-americas-jobless-rate/542352/178 "2010-06-14T17:27:56Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > I’ll let the 12 year olds at [CATO](http://www.socialsecurity.org/daily/05-11-99.html) address that one. You could have stopped right there. Anything with their name on it is going to conclude that government is bad, you don’t even have to read the stuff that comes before. Sometimes their arguments can be superficially plausible, sometimes they have to resort to 12-year-old’s tactics. > [@](#): > > If it were a pension, then you’d get back your money based on some kind of return. You do. The return is paid for by people still working. > [@](#): > > But if we’re talking about reducing benefits, making more benefits subject to tax, delaying payout/retirement, etc., then we’re acting as though SS is an entitlement, and one that can be monkey’d with as needed to delay disaster. This is the concept of autopilot and maintenance I guess you were trying to clumsily make earlier. Clumsy as it may have been, it appears to have gotten through. As evidenced by your lack of reply to the query as to why you think it’s a problem. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-how-would-you-reduce-americas-jobless-rate/542352/179 "2010-06-14T17:29:39Z")
> [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > You are correct in that most Ponzi schemes involve an element of fraud - meaning, someone voluntarily agreed to invest their money, and then were deceived due to the ‘House of Cards’ nature of the scheme. Okay, maybe you’re getting somewhere. But you still don’t show you understand why a pyramid scheme is an unsustainable house of cards, why it’s inherently fraudulent, and why SS is not. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2010, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-how-would-you-reduce-americas-jobless-rate/542352/180 "2010-06-14T17:33:25Z")
> [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > EXACTLY! > > Don’t you realize that you and Elvis1Lives keep contradicting yourselves? > > There are no reserves. It’s an accounting fiction. > > It is a Ponzi scheme. In that case every single insurance scheme in the world is a Ponzi scheme. There’s a difference between investment funds and insurance funds, if you don’t want to se it that’s up to you. SS currently has over two trillion dollars in US bond in a very real trust fund administered by very real trustees and actuaries, not by Ponzi schemers. Ponzi schemers operate investment funds which they pilfer. They pay out investors’ invested capital in “profits” to their investors at higher than average rates of return to encourage new investment until eventually the whole thing blows up and the investors are left with nothing. People paying into SS are paid by future workers’ insurance payments when they retire, they don’t have any capital investment to Ponzi, just the same guarantee an insurance company gives you to pay your future claims when it takes your current premiums and pays them out in claims/shareholder profits. What part of this don’t you understand? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-how-would-you-reduce-americas-jobless-rate/542352.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-how-would-you-reduce-americas-jobless-rate/542352.md?page=10)