# Republicans: Please Define Health Care Reform **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 21, 2010, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-please-define-health-care-reform/525777 "2010-01-21T01:17:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-please-define-health-care-reform/525777/181 "2010-01-22T01:56:05Z")
> [@tacoloco](#): > > Explain to me how this isn’t true for some people in this thread? > > People are absolutely unwilling to accept anything that might be for the greater good if they don’t do it themselves. Perhaps if people would stop thinking about themselves and their ideologies, we could make some meaningful progress. > > :smack: What was I thinking? How about enlightened self-interest as well as the greater good. I like not having these worries about insurance that you have. I liked having $40 premiums. I like health care being more like police services and less like lawn care. I like not having to ask my insurer which doctors or hospitals I’m allowed to see. It is for the greater good, true, but the attitude around here is more along the lines of “Well, yeah. Health care is one of the reasons we pay taxes, isn’t it?” To me it’s as ideological as expecting clean drinking water, and results trump ideology anyway. Canada’s various provincial and territorial health insurance systems may have their rough spots, but we aren’t dying of cancer because our insurers pull their coverage midway through our chemo, and we aren’t being bankrupted by the millions because of health care costs. If the reverse were true, and the US had the system to beat, then I’d be arguing we should emulate you. A larger pool of insured dilutes the risk, or whatever language the insurers use. I don’t understand why people wouldn’t strive for this. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-please-define-health-care-reform/525777/182 "2010-01-22T01:56:21Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Someone can certainly believe that all that they want. Objective evidence, however, shows that you currently pay WAY too much as a % of GDP for healthcare that does not cover a large number of people. Your health outcomes do not reflect this greater amount of spending. These are facts. > > Your current situation does not seem to be “better society” where people take care of themselves. I’ve heard from people who would LIKE TO take care of themselves and get reasonably priced medical insurance, but are unable to do so. I’ve heard from people who THOUGHT they had looked after themselves and loved ones, only to be told their health insurance was cancelled. > > IT IS NOT WORKING. People are unable to take care of themselves and their loved ones under the current system. > > ETA the point of the thread as I remember is to look for ways that Republicans have suggested fixing the system. Some posters have provided some ideas. Others though have just said “people should look after themselves and their loved ones” as though people are not ALREADY TRYING TO DO THAT in the current system. > > It smacks of “let them eat cake” I can see how you think that that is indeed the attitude of some. and others haven’t thought about it beyond, “hey, that’s more money out of my pocket? Forget it.” But that is not the point of the thread. And some people have answered the OP. You seem to want to ignore that and jump to, “See, see, some people DO just want to not pay another dime—damn the benefits to society!” This post of yours argue that something needs to be done. Most contributors (all?) agree with that. They differ on the specifics. And probably the degree. That does not mean they are hard-hearted and insist that everything stay just the way it is. I, for one, have expressed that I’d be MUCH more to the proposed changes of we had tried some simpler things first. I think you need to pay a little closer attention to the OP and the responses in this thread. And pick up a little narrower brush. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-please-define-health-care-reform/525777/183 "2010-01-22T01:59:53Z")
> [@tacoloco](#): > > Oh, I have no doubt you think that. But it has been my experience that precious few people who oppose UHC or a national health system oppose it on an ideological basis, not on a greater good basis. And that ideology often comes down to “I don’t want to spend my money helping” whatever. But there are respondents in this very thread who have offered moire than that. Yet, you seem to not want to accept what they say, or ignore it, or continue to point to one point of view. And you haven’t answered my question: do you truly understand the positions offered in this thread; could you present an argument supporting that position? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-please-define-health-care-reform/525777/184 "2010-01-22T02:00:30Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > That depends on how you define ‘winning the issue’. Your ideology results in the mess your country finds itself in right now, whereas mine does not. But you didn’t answer my question. Why should others act in your interest? At all? You expect to benefit from the shared services you and your neighbours have paid for, I’m sure; why? I expect to benefit, yes, but not because I have told my neighbors they need to pay for me as well as themselves. I pay as much as my neighbors do, generally speaking. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-please-define-health-care-reform/525777/185 "2010-01-22T02:10:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I expect to benefit, yes, but not because I have told my neighbors they need to pay for me as well as themselves. I pay as much as my neighbors do, generally speaking. But you don’t pay for all of it. You use many things you didn’t pay for, and while you don’t call people up and make personal demands of them, you do expect them to pay their taxes like you do yours, yes? Ideologically, I see little difference between health insurance and fire services. Practically, American citizens are the insurance industry’s bitches whereas Canadians are not. ---
**Author:** ![Sateryn76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Sateryn76](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sateryn76)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-please-define-health-care-reform/525777/186 "2010-01-22T02:10:53Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > That depends on how you define ‘winning the issue’. Your ideology results in the mess your country finds itself in right now, whereas mine does not. But you didn’t answer my question. Why should others act in your interest? At all? You expect to benefit from the shared services you and your neighbours have paid for, I’m sure; why? Which mess would that be? Approx. 80% of the country is happy with their care. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-please-define-health-care-reform/525777/187 "2010-01-22T02:17:42Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > But there are respondents in this very thread who have offered moire than that. Yet, you seem to not want to accept what they say, or ignore it, or continue to point to one point of view. > > And you haven’t answered my question: do you truly understand the positions offered in this thread; could you present an argument supporting that position? Yes, they’ve offered tired old talking points from 1995 that the Republicans knew weren’t workable even then. That’s why they never passed them when they had the chance. I haven’t seen any evidence that Republicans have anything to offer the healthcare debate other than “The government can’t do anything about it!” That’s bulletproof, as far as argument goes, but if the issue means anything to you, then it’s not an argument you can give any credence to. ---
**Author:** ![ManiacMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b782af/32.png) [@ManiacMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ManiacMan)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-please-define-health-care-reform/525777/188 "2010-01-22T02:17:53Z")
I also agree that it is better to have people provide for themselves. If there is need to do some reforms that would fix alot of obvious injustice it should be done. However, I also would like to see any changes made incrementally…small reasonable changes made over time. Not this current bill(s) that wants to change everything so drastically and so quickly. Fuck that…you just can’t change something so complex seemingly overnight. I point to what congress did to try and get people to be home owners. Clearly, congress is not smart enough to be trying to handle amazingly complex issues such as they try. The unintended consequences have too great a potential for catastrophe, and I don’t trust either side to do this thing right…so steady as she goes imho. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-please-define-health-care-reform/525777/189 "2010-01-22T02:22:12Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#): > > Which mess would that be? Approx. 80% of the country is happy with their care. 20% is sure a big number to have unhappy. I don’t see why basic health care should not be in the same set of benefits as roads, fire protection, police protection, clean drinking water, building code enforcement etc. It is simply the mark of a developed society. I don’t derive any benefit from you having a fancy car, but I do get value from you being healthy. It is sad that I can get faster, cheaper and often better medical care in Yemen and Tunisia (two places where I have used the medical system) than I can in the USA. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-please-define-health-care-reform/525777/190 "2010-01-22T02:27:03Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > But you don’t pay for all of it. You use many things you didn’t pay for, and while you don’t call people up and make personal demands of them, you do expect them to pay their taxes like you do yours, yes? What do you mean? I pay a share for national defense, and I use a share of national defense. What am I using that I don’t pay for? ---
**Author:** ![Sateryn76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Sateryn76](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sateryn76)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-please-define-health-care-reform/525777/191 "2010-01-22T02:29:46Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > 20% is sure a big number to have unhappy. > > I don’t see why basic health care should not be in the same set of benefits as roads, fire protection, police protection, clean drinking water, building code enforcement etc. It is simply the mark of a developed society. I don’t derive any benefit from you having a fancy car, but I do get value from you being healthy. > > It is sad that I can get faster, cheaper and often better medical care in Yemen and Tunisia (two places where I have used the medical system) than I can in the USA. Here’s a question - how do you define “basic health care”? In my state, we have free vaccinations, health screenings at the schools, free screenings at hospitals and clinics, and as mentioned above, you can walk into any ER and get cared for, among other freebies. In addition, one of the problems with lumping health care in with things like “roads” and “water” is that, compared to those kinds of things, health care is enormously complex. Police and fire protection are very simple to understand and implement across a wide society, as are paved roads and clean water. I do not think that it can be fairly compared to health care, which is full of not only a million different types of care, but also issues of psychology, culture, gender, politics…just a entire universe of pressures that are impossible to understand, quantify and administer across a country as diverse as ours. ---
**Author:** ![tacoloco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tacoloco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tacoloco)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-please-define-health-care-reform/525777/192 "2010-01-22T02:35:17Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > But there are respondents in this very thread who have offered moire than that. Yet, you seem to not want to accept what they say, or ignore it, or continue to point to one point of view. Who’s ignoring it? Am I not supposed to point out the selfish attitudes I’m reading here? Or would you prefer that I focus on your particular argument. > [@](#): > > And you haven’t answered my question: do you truly understand the positions offered in this thread; could you present an argument supporting that position? Which position? Bricker’s where he doesn’t think people should be entitled to health care or perhaps Sateryn’s position that an national health system where people are forced to pay hurts the free market. Or perhaps some other position posted here. I understand all of the arguments and frankly, I reject them as being wrong. ---
**Author:** ![tacoloco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tacoloco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tacoloco)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-please-define-health-care-reform/525777/193 "2010-01-22T02:37:18Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#): > > and as mentioned above, you can walk into any ER and get cared for, among other freebies. I doubt ER care for basic everyday type issues is a cost effective way to deal with problems. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-please-define-health-care-reform/525777/194 "2010-01-22T02:40:04Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > If you insist on being obtuse, the conversation ends here and now. > We are talking reform (which is evidently the same to you as leaving things status quo) If that’s what you think I’ve said, the obtuseness is not on my end. > [@yorick73](#): > > Oh, so there is no competition among credit card companies? That doesn’t explain all those damn offers in my mailbox. What’s the real difference in their offers? And how many are left in the business? **magellean01** , wow, a cite from [republican-leadership.com](http://republican-leadership.com) explaining how they themselves haven’t put together a coherent plan. Thanks for the support. ---
**Author:** ![tacoloco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tacoloco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tacoloco)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-please-define-health-care-reform/525777/195 "2010-01-22T02:42:19Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > How about enlightened self-interest as well as the greater good. I like not having these worries about insurance that you have. I liked having $40 premiums. I like health care being more like police services and less like lawn care. I like not having to ask my insurer which doctors or hospitals I’m allowed to see. It is for the greater good, true, but the attitude around here is more along the lines of “Well, yeah. Health care is one of the reasons we pay taxes, isn’t it?” To me it’s as ideological as expecting clean drinking water, and results trump ideology anyway. Canada’s various provincial and territorial health insurance systems may have their rough spots, but we aren’t dying of cancer because our insurers pull their coverage midway through our chemo, and we aren’t being bankrupted by the millions because of health care costs. If the reverse were true, and the US had the system to beat, then I’d be arguing we should emulate you. > > A larger pool of insured dilutes the risk, or whatever language the insurers use. I don’t understand why people wouldn’t strive for this. You and I are in complete agreement. The health care system in the U.S. is completely fucked and needs a major overhaul and a system like those that are successful in other countries. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-please-define-health-care-reform/525777/196 "2010-01-22T02:44:31Z")
> [@tacoloco](#): > > I understand all of the arguments and frankly, I reject them as being wrong. That’s the beauty of our system, though. You advocate for the position you think is right. I, for the position i think is right. Voters support the side that they find most persuasive. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-please-define-health-care-reform/525777/197 "2010-01-22T02:44:38Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#): > > Which mess would that be? Approx. 80% of the country is happy with their care. Care? That says nothing about insurance. Please don’t try to tell me that tens of millions of insured people bankrupted by health costs and and insurance industry that purposely makes the effort to look for excuses to not provide coverage and insurance premiums that could buy two small cars per year is not a mess. I’m sure the care is exemplary. It’s fine work, if you can get it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-please-define-health-care-reform/525777/198 "2010-01-22T02:52:29Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Care? That says nothing about insurance. Please don’t try to tell me that tens of millions of insured people bankrupted by health costs and and insurance industry that purposely makes the effort to look for excuses to not provide coverage and insurance premiums that could buy two small cars per year is not a mess. > > I’m sure the care is exemplary. It’s fine work, if you can get it. I’m happy with my insurance. ---
**Author:** ![tacoloco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tacoloco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tacoloco)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-please-define-health-care-reform/525777/199 "2010-01-22T02:55:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m happy with my insurance. That’s great, as long as you’re employed or can afford private health insurance. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-please-define-health-care-reform/525777/200 "2010-01-22T03:04:28Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#): > > Here’s a question - how do you define “basic health care”? In my state, we have free vaccinations, health screenings at the schools, free screenings at hospitals and clinics, and as mentioned above, you can walk into any ER and get cared for, among other freebies. The ER is not free - a friend was billed $9000 for a short visit to one in Las Vegas (less than 5 minutes with a doc and 3 hours waiting), plus 2 medications. I define basic health care as any emergency treatment for an accident (fall off a ladder, crash your car etc), and any catastrophic care such as the onset of cancer. For most stuff I expect to pay, but not at the crazy rates that things cost in the US. Why does a surgery performed in the Czech Republic by a US-trained doctor cost $450, and the same thing, done by the doctor one month earlier in the USA cost $12,000? Note this is all out of pocket with no insurance or state coverage involved. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-please-define-health-care-reform/525777.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-please-define-health-care-reform/525777.md?page=11)