# Republicans: Please Define Health Care Reform **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 21, 2010, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-please-define-health-care-reform/525777 "2010-01-21T01:17:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2010, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-please-define-health-care-reform/525777/81 "2010-01-21T18:32:55Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > The last sentence in your exerpt is telling. Overutilization will be the order of the day under UHC. According to whom? Interstate competition has another problem that no one seems to want to talk about. Insurance is only helpful if you can find a doctor who accepts it. So instaed of negotiating with two or three organizations, doctors will be pestered by dozens or perhaps hundreds of provider coordinators trying to get them to sign on. Considering that doctors already blow at least half a day a week listening to pharmaceutical reps, there won’t be enough hours in a week for them to see enough patients to cover their overhead. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2010, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-please-define-health-care-reform/525777/82 "2010-01-21T18:39:56Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > This isn’t going have much effect that I can see, though, because health care is one of those markets in which supply and demand just don’t work. Unlike with elective procedures, there is no x to the demand curve. This is incorrect. Even if you assume that everyone is willing to sell every asset they own for the chance to save themselves, you still have a demand curve defined by how much each member of the market can actually get together. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2010, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-please-define-health-care-reform/525777/83 "2010-01-21T18:40:13Z")
I"ve said it before, but I think that Americans are hooped when it comes to changing anything to do with health care insurance in a substantive way. 1. Your political system gives much power to individual states - this makes a federal initiative very hard to accomplish. 2. There is a deep cultural meme that states that government is bad, government workers are inefficient, and government programs don’t work. Mistrust of “government” is huge in the US - more than in any country I’ve lived in. 3. The opposite of this is the respect in the US given to individuality and not relying on others for handouts. 4. There is a tremendous private industry (insurance) that will fight any change tooth and nail. This is not their “fault”, it makes total sense from their perspective. 5. The polarized political system means that there are many who cheer for their “team”, and oppose the other “team” no matter what. This makes decision making very difficult if the other “team” is simply opposing anything and everything. I don’t think we would have gotten UHC in Canada those many years ago if we did not have a situation where a left-leaning 3rd party (NDP) occasionally gets into power provincially, and sometimes holds the balance of power in a minority situation nationally. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2010, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-please-define-health-care-reform/525777/84 "2010-01-21T18:41:56Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > According to whom? Economics? Common sense? > [@saoirse](#): > > Interstate competition has another problem that no one seems to want to talk about. Insurance is only helpful if you can find a doctor who accepts it. So instaed of negotiating with two or three organizations, doctors will be pestered by dozens or perhaps hundreds of provider coordinators trying to get them to sign on. Considering that doctors already blow at least half a day a week listening to pharmaceutical reps, there won’t be enough hours in a week for them to see enough patients to cover their overhead. I’m not sure I buy this. According to those opposed all insurance companies will move to the state that has the least regulation. Many will not be able to compete and the number of companies will be smaller. Yes, the companies we can choose from will be larger and competition will be greater. This just might result in lower prices. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2010, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-please-define-health-care-reform/525777/85 "2010-01-21T18:46:12Z")
Competition between more providers has resulted only in very rapid price increases. How is tightening an oligopoly going to reverse that, Mr. Common Sense? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2010, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-please-define-health-care-reform/525777/86 "2010-01-21T19:04:15Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Oh, right, the single-page pamphlet without any numbers in it, followed by nothing at all. Good for you. :rolleyes: No, actually the two websites with many clickable links discussing exactly what you asked for. _:shrugs:_ You claimed you really wanted an explanation. My bad for believing you. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-please-define-health-care-reform/525777/87 "2010-01-21T19:05:03Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > But see, \*\*John \*\*and **Bricker** , that ship has already sailed. We as a society have already decided that we will provide needed health care to those unable to pay. Recall, we don’t put indigent people out for the lions, we instead require them to be accepted whenever they can walk, crawl or stumble into an emergency room. Clearly we have already made a societal decision and then a governmental regulation here. The starting point of the debate is not \*whether \*poor people have a right to care. The debate is by what mechanisms will that care be funded. > > Will we continue the present insane system of charges, charge-backs, “losses” and the rest of it whereby ever-increasing insurance rates are needed to cover uncontrollable “uninsured” payouts for emergency care forcing an inward spiral in which fewer and fewer can afford coverage but the total dollars spent on coverage continue to climb? Or can we find another system whereby these same people, and the same needed treatments, are funded in a more direct and transparent manner? > > And this of course doesn’t even encompass the huge waste of manpower and efficiency society absorbs by failing to provide preventative and/or early treatment care, which is of course not part of a care delivery system based upon current emergency room-only restrictions. This post deserves to be repeated. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2010, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-please-define-health-care-reform/525777/88 "2010-01-21T19:16:22Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, actually the two websites with many clickable links discussing exactly what you asked for. > > _:shrugs:_ > > You claimed you really wanted an explanation. My bad for believing you. > > Regards, > Shodan I gave up, myself. If you want us to read something specific, link to it. Linking to a site that we’re supposed to explore in hopes of finding those wonderful gems of truth that you swear are there doesn’t cut it. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2010, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-please-define-health-care-reform/525777/89 "2010-01-21T19:23:53Z")
We’d actually like to know just what substantive and constructive policy proposals, presented in good faith by a national-interest-driven Republican leadership, were so peremptorily dismissed by the partisan Democrats. But actually, we already have that answer. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2010, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-please-define-health-care-reform/525777/90 "2010-01-21T19:29:28Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > This post deserves to be repeated. Why? I don’t see how that post gets you to the idea that everyone has a right to health care or that it proposes some specific way to reform the current system. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2010, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-please-define-health-care-reform/525777/91 "2010-01-21T19:40:26Z")
1. It establishes that we as a society already recognize a right to health care. 2. It establishes that “No” is not an acceptable answer. That should be enough. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2010, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-please-define-health-care-reform/525777/92 "2010-01-21T19:52:29Z")
[QUOTE=BobLibDem] I gave up, myself. If you want us to read something specific, link to it. Linking to a site that we’re supposed to explore in hopes of finding those wonderful gems of truth that you swear are there doesn’t cut it. [/QUOTE] I don’t see what is so hard about this. Here is what is allegedly requested - > [@](#): > > I really would like to know why the Republican leadership has said basically nothing about any of these allegedly “Republican” proposals over the last few years, instead of yammering about “death panels” and voting No on everything. Anybody got an explanation? So I posted [this link](http://www.healthtransformation.net/cs/newt_gingrich), which says right on the front fucking page that it is a foundation founded in 2003 by Newt Gingrich to bring about health care reform. Newt Gingrich is certainly a Republican, he is certainly a leader, he has said a great deal more than “nothing” about health care reform, there isn’t a fucking word about “death panels” anywhere, 2003 certainly qualifies as “the last few years” and, far from voting No on everything, it lists a number of initiatives that Newt was instrumental in bringing about. I grant you, you have to scroll down two whole paragraphs to see it, but is that so tough? The other link has eighteen links and a video, which **ElvisL1ves** stated falsely was a single page pamphlet with nothing following it. So, every single, solitary word that he said was demonstrably wrong. It gets tiresome spoon-feeding you people, especially since you don’t pay any attention when I do. You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink. Much the same is true about a jackass, especially for a party who chose one as their symbol. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-please-define-health-care-reform/525777/93 "2010-01-21T19:53:39Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > But see, \*\*John \*\*and **Bricker** , that ship has already sailed. We as a society have already decided that we will provide needed health care to those unable to pay. Recall, we don’t put indigent people out for the lions, we instead require them to be accepted whenever they can walk, crawl or stumble into an emergency room. Clearly we have already made a societal decision and then a governmental regulation here. The starting point of the debate is not \*whether \*poor people have a right to care. The debate is by what mechanisms will that care be funded. No. This is where the argument is. We have agreed as a society to provide \*emergency \*care. Not healthcare. If a person gets hit by a car we’ll patch him up. If someone twists his knee and cold use a new ACL, that’s not anything we agree to provide as a society. So, you’re framing the debate in a way that begs the question. If you were correct, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. The point we are at as a society is deciding to what degree are we willing to provide care. We agree on emergency care. That’s it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-please-define-health-care-reform/525777/94 "2010-01-21T19:54:25Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > 1. It establishes that we as a society already recognize a right to health care. No, it doesn’t because no, we don’t. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-please-define-health-care-reform/525777/95 "2010-01-21T19:54:47Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > 1. It establishes that we as a society already recognize a right to health care. > > 2. It establishes that “No” is not an acceptable answer. > > That should be enough. :dubious: And that is why it is an erroneous, if not dishonest, way to frame the debate. See my previous post. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2010, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-please-define-health-care-reform/525777/96 "2010-01-21T19:55:53Z")
Yes, it does because yes, we do. So there. **Shodan** , Newt Gingrich is a private citizen. Not a leader of his party. Perhaps you didn’t notice. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2010, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-please-define-health-care-reform/525777/97 "2010-01-21T19:59:24Z")
You make a statement in GD. I give a reasoned explanation as to why I think your point is incorrect. You respond like a 4-year-old. And you wonder why you guys just got your ass kicked in MA.:rolleyes: But, PLEASE, continue with that strategy. On preview, I see that you might have been responding to **John Mace’s** terse reply. If so, my apologies, as your reasoned rebuttal is mere keystrokes away.:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![tacoloco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tacoloco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tacoloco)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2010, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-please-define-health-care-reform/525777/98 "2010-01-21T20:04:30Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#): > > I was working on the information provided. > > I must also note that burger jobs at White Castle now offer insurance. And Applebees does for part-timers… Are you confused about what “uninsurable” means? Are there any facts in evidence that indicate that someone who is considered to be uninsurable would, in fact, be eligible for insurance through an employer? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2010, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-please-define-health-care-reform/525777/99 "2010-01-21T20:07:22Z")
> [@kingbighair](#): > > No. Medicare began in 1965 or so. Are you claiming the Court holds the position that seniors have a legal right to health care? Are you saying Congress could not repeal Medicare tomorrow? Not across the board, no. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2010, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-please-define-health-care-reform/525777/100 "2010-01-21T20:08:06Z")
I was indeed making fun of **John** ’s pouting. But you did stumble across a good point, that “health care” is not a single concept and that there can be gradations as to what types of it we as a society have agreed to provide. It’s certainly good to see you part ways with the GOP on that. There has been a very interesting debate over the decades as to how to implement that commitment more efficiently and effectively. The immediate topic, though, is how and why a minority party has been able to get away with simple obstructionism rather than substantive participation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-please-define-health-care-reform/525777.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-please-define-health-care-reform/525777.md?page=6)