# Republicans should be careful of what they wish for **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [February 17, 2012, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-should-be-careful-of-what-they-wish-for/613124 "2012-02-17T12:00:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-should-be-careful-of-what-they-wish-for/613124/41 "2012-02-18T17:20:39Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Aw, c’mon, big guy! Suit up, get in the game, get a little mud on ya! Its good for you, it builds character! This is starting to get too personal and will probably derail the thread, so I’ll just end it by saying if you want to go _mano a mano_ as to who has taken more actual positions on issues on this MB, I’m more than willing. Just because I’m not interested in throwing my weight behind either established party doesn’t mean I don’t have principled stances on the issues. Those are two completely separate things. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-should-be-careful-of-what-they-wish-for/613124/42 "2012-02-18T17:21:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > We libertarians are largely outside the bounds of these discussions. I’ll give libertarians credit for this - they’re consistent in their views on government spending. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-should-be-careful-of-what-they-wish-for/613124/43 "2012-02-18T17:38:56Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > This is starting to get too personal and will probably derail the thread, so I’ll just end it by saying … Well, OK, **John** , but next time is my turn to “end it”. Fair enough? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-should-be-careful-of-what-they-wish-for/613124/44 "2012-02-18T17:48:32Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Are you trying to be difficult? To use different terms to describe what the OP is talking about, he’s discussing a “wedge issue.” > > To use seventh grade language here, sometimes political observers find that people who often vote for one type of candidates may actually turn their vote against that candidate because of one issue on which they do not agree. > > The OP is saying that if conservative candidates are successful in dismantling social safety net programs, they might piss off a number of their constituents who actually depend on those programs without understanding that they are programs that are under attack. The unspoken (but totally obvious) corollary to that is that Democrats could turn this into a “wedge issue,” or a means to separate certain conservative Americans from their typical voting patterns. Is that really such a difficult line of reasoning to parse? > > “Wedge issue.” If you use the term three times, then it is yours. Pfft. I’ve been listening to the liberals on this MB for years telling us how the stupid conservative voters would change their evil ways if they were only educated, like all the good liberal voters. It’s a mindset that is stuck in the idea that your side is objectively right, and the other side is objectively wrong. So, if your side is so smart, why don’t you turn this into a wedge issue and run the bank on the election? Your example of Byrd is not what this thread is about. Federal pork to build a highway in your district isn’t the same as a federally administered social program that spreads money across the entire country. Conservative voters may very well be stupid about any number of things, but they’re not stupid about that. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-should-be-careful-of-what-they-wish-for/613124/45 "2012-02-18T17:56:35Z")
The study posted on the first page shows that ~40% of them are, though. Now, 40% of liberal voters may _also_ be clueless about “social programs”, but they’re not clamoring to abolish them. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-should-be-careful-of-what-they-wish-for/613124/46 "2012-02-18T18:11:37Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > …So, if your side is so smart, why don’t you turn this into a wedge issue and run the bank on the election? … Because the really smart people are all non-partisan! Duh! Everybody knows _that_! ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-should-be-careful-of-what-they-wish-for/613124/47 "2012-02-18T18:29:24Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Are they stupid, or just hypocritical? Hmmm. > > My first instinct upon seeing [this map](http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/02/12/us/entitlement-map.html?ref=us) is to be outraged at the hypocrisy, and think that it might be funny if states’ rights and a massive reduction in the social safety net were actually to become reality. Actually, it looks to me like that map lines up pretty closely with the counties in the South and West where Obama did well. See [electoral map by county](http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/11/county-vote-map.html). In the Deep South, it coincides pretty closely with the so-called [Black Belt region](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Belt_%28U.S._region%29). So if you were to show that first map to a white Southern Republican, it would likely only reinforce their racial outlook. (“We white people are being forced to support black people on the dole.” That is exactly the outlook of a lot of white Republicans in the South.) (To be clear, I am not endorsing this view; just reporting it.) ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-should-be-careful-of-what-they-wish-for/613124/48 "2012-02-18T19:13:47Z")
It doesn’t really look like those maps at all (aside from some counties in New Mexico). Many of the darkest areas are in eastern KY, WV and the east and west borders of AZ. The “Black Belt” is a few counties to the south and east of the “McCain Belt” where many of the most entitlement-thirsty counties lie. That’s just for the overall view. Select facets of the entitlement spending hit other areas differently. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-should-be-careful-of-what-they-wish-for/613124/49 "2012-02-18T19:20:33Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Many of the darkest areas are in eastern KY, WV and the east and west borders of AZ. Yes, but West Virginia is not exactly a traditional Republican stronghold. If anything, just the opposite. Only recently has it begun to trend Republican. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-should-be-careful-of-what-they-wish-for/613124/50 "2012-02-18T23:22:17Z")
Be that as it may, the mountains of WV aren’t exactly heavily populated with African-Americans. The entitlement map doesn’t fit the “black belt” map. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2012, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-should-be-careful-of-what-they-wish-for/613124/51 "2012-02-18T23:25:14Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > Yes, but West Virginia is not exactly a traditional Republican stronghold. If anything, just the opposite. Only recently has it begun to trend Republican. It was a solidly Democratic state until later than the rest of the region, but that ship has sailed in the 21st century. McCain took almost every county in the state. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-should-be-careful-of-what-they-wish-for/613124/52 "2012-02-19T02:46:26Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Is it your contention the people should always vote for what is in their own economic self-interest above everything else? Isn’t that what most progressives on this MB deplore? > > I don’t know about you, but I often vote against my own economic self-interest. That’s a fair point, and I certainly don’t hold it against wealthy people when they support Democrats who will raise their taxes. But I still think it’s worth raising an eyebrow over the fact that if we really went all out for “states’ rights” and limited the federal budget to national defense, the U.S. Mint, etc., and let states fund their own social programmes, we’d see a LOT of money move back from the red states to the blue states. As Krugman noted in the article I quoted in my OP: Aaron Carroll of Indiana University tells us that in 2010, residents of the 10 states Gallup ranks as “most conservative” received 21.2 percent of their income in government transfers, while the number for the 10 most liberal states was only 17.1 percent. And your point also does not address the fact that around two-fifths of people who use the big three entitlement programmes (Medicare/Medicaid/SS) say they have “not used a government program”. Well, except that those programmes collectively make up 41% of the entire federal budget, while all the other social safety net type programmes combined only add up to 14%. ([Source](http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=1258)) ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-should-be-careful-of-what-they-wish-for/613124/53 "2012-02-19T04:07:34Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Is it your contention the people should always vote for what is in their own economic self-interest above everything else? Isn’t that what most progressives on this MB deplore? > > I don’t know about you, but I often vote against my own economic self-interest. Reread paragraph 2 of post 29, the very post you replied to. I said right there that votes are based on many more factors than only what benefits a politician may promise them. > [@](#): > > Pfft. I’ve been listening to the liberals on this MB for years telling us how the stupid conservative voters would change their evil ways if they were only educated, like all the good liberal voters. It’s a mindset that is stuck in the idea that your side is objectively right, and the other side is objectively wrong. So you’re just angry at liberals today. > [@](#): > > So, if your side is so smart, why don’t you turn this into a wedge issue and run the bank on the election? We might. Sometimes the time is right for certain issues to resonate in a political campaign, sometimes it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-should-be-careful-of-what-they-wish-for/613124/54 "2012-02-19T15:33:18Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I used to run into this back when I was working. I worked in a prison, so I was a government employee. Prison guards tend to be a pretty conservative group (in some case, extremely conservative) so when there was talk about the government, the usual consensus was like this: > > Somebody: “We pay too much taxes. I have a solution. We should just cut all government spending by twenty percent. Right across the board.” > Me: “You’d be willing to take a cut in pay like that?” > Somebody: “Huh?” > Me: “You said we should cut all government spending by twenty percent. We’re employees of the government. Our salaries are a government expense. So you’re saying you’d be willing to take a twenty percent cut in pay?” > Somebody: “Hell, no, that’s different. I earned that money. In fact, I should get a raise. I’m just saying we should cut government spending.” I’m reminded of a firefighter I know who said that welfare recipients shouldn’t be allowed to vote because “It’s a conflict of interest to vote when your money comes from the government.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-should-be-careful-of-what-they-wish-for/613124.md?page=2)