# Republicans: torture good, marriage bad **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 17, 2004, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-torture-good-marriage-bad/245584 "2004-05-17T12:49:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-torture-good-marriage-bad/245584/1 "2004-05-17T12:49:18Z")
Yeah, this is the corner your precious Bushco has backed you into now: you have to defend the torture at Abu Ghraib as just a bunch of fraternity hazings, or as a necessary adjunct to the war on terror (even though most at Abu Ghraib are innocent of any terrorist activity) and attack the right of two people of the same sex to express their love through marriage. So remember: torture good, marriage bad. And if you get a funny feeling when you say that, it’s just what’s left of your sense of morality trying to survive. And try not to let your heads explode while you’re at it. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-torture-good-marriage-bad/245584/2 "2004-05-17T13:13:42Z")
**Evil Captor** : Blabbering good, cohesive thoughts bad. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-torture-good-marriage-bad/245584/3 "2004-05-17T13:19:54Z")
So, you got nothing, Brutus? Because I can point out that the Bush Admin. has supported torture, calling the Geneva Convention constraints agaisnt it “quaint” and I can point to Bush specifically opposing gay marriage. I posted this because it truly highlights the moral disconnect that the Bush administration has gotten the Republicans and some conservatives into. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-torture-good-marriage-bad/245584/4 "2004-05-17T13:28:51Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > …and I can point to Bush specifically opposing gay marriage. [As if he’s the only one…](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_Marriage_Act) > [@](#): > > The Defense of Marriage Act was signed into law by President Bill Clinton on September 21, 1996 after moving through a legislative fast track and overwhelming approval in both houses of the Republican controlled United States Congress. Its Congressional sponsors stated, “[T]he bill amends the U.S. Code to make explicit what has been understood under federal law for over 200 years; that a marriage is the legal union of a man and a woman as husband and wife, and a spouse is a husband or wife of the opposite sex.” But, of course, it’s all Bush’s fault that the majority of the country is against gay marriage, because somehow he had the clout, even as Governor of Texas, to have a law passed in an attempt to restrict gay marriage. Oh, wait a second, that law was signed by a Democrat you say? Never mind, then… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-torture-good-marriage-bad/245584/5 "2004-05-17T13:35:27Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > I posted this because it truly highlights the moral disconnect that the Bush administration has gotten the Republicans and some conservatives into. Bullshit. You haven’t posted one of your thinly-veiled rants in some time, and were feeling a need to do so. Remember your stupid ‘If you are a Republican, you are racist’ thread? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-torture-good-marriage-bad/245584/6 "2004-05-17T13:54:38Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > [As if he’s the only one…](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_Marriage_Act) > > But, of course, it’s all Bush’s fault that the majority of the country is against gay marriage, because somehow he had the clout, even as Governor of Texas, to have a law passed in an attempt to restrict gay marriage. Oh, wait a second, that law was signed by a Democrat you say? Never mind, then… :rolleyes: DOMA, while stupid, does not actually _forbid_ states from legalizing gay marriage, it only provides a loophole in the Full Faith and Credit Clause, which means that anti-gay states don’t have to recognize gay marriages from other states. It was a shitty and hateful piece of legislation and Clinton was wrong to sign it, but it is not on the same scale as altering the US Constitution in such a way as to actively _forbid_ any state from legalizing same-sex marriage. It would be the first time the Constitution was amended to _take rights away_ from a class of citizens instead of to create them or affirm them. It’s not Bush’s fault that the country is against gay marriage (Americans are just backwards morons for the most part) but that doesn’t mean he should validate their bigotry with the first ever hate amendment. And if he actually _believes_ in this garbage (we all know Clinton didn’t give a crap, it was just coldly political with him. He was far too intelligent to really care about homosexuality) then he’s a moron. It is impossible to be intelligent AND to sincerely think we need an anti-gay hate amendment in the US Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-torture-good-marriage-bad/245584/7 "2004-05-17T13:58:28Z")
I herefore propose Robert’s Law of Political Debates: Any parties found to be engaging in unprovoked tu quoque shall hereafter be forced to compose all further replies to the thread in iambic pentameter. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-torture-good-marriage-bad/245584/8 "2004-05-17T14:01:15Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Americans are just backwards morons for the most part. And you have the nerve to call others bigots. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-torture-good-marriage-bad/245584/9 "2004-05-17T14:05:48Z")
I thought torture and marriage were the same thing! _Buh-duh-duh_ But seriously, folks, War is Peace, Ignorance is Truth. Bush–Cheney '04. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-torture-good-marriage-bad/245584/10 "2004-05-17T14:26:36Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Bullshit. You haven’t posted one of your thinly-veiled rants in some time, and were feeling a need to do so. You’ve got damned good eyesight if you can _see_ a veil in that OP, **Brutus**. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-torture-good-marriage-bad/245584/11 "2004-05-17T15:29:22Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] It was a shitty and hateful piece of legislation and Clinton was wrong to sign it, but it is not on the same scale as altering the US Constitution in such a way as to actively _forbid_ any state from legalizing same-sex marriage. It would be the first time the Constitution was amended to _take rights away_ from a class of citizens instead of to create them or affirm them. It’s not Bush’s fault that the country is against gay marriage (Americans are just backwards morons for the most part) but that doesn’t mean he should validate their bigotry with the first ever hate amendment. [QUOTE] And do you really think that the Federal Marriage Amendment has any chance of making it through, the House, the Senate, AND 38 individual states? Fat chance. That “legislation” is DOA, and you know it. Note that it hasn’t happened, nor is it likely to happen. It’s simply election year pandering. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-torture-good-marriage-bad/245584/12 "2004-05-17T15:34:02Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > It would be the first time the Constitution was amended to _take rights away_ from a class of citizens instead of to create them or affirm them. And I forgot to address this, too. This is incorrect. The 18th Amendment (and to a lesser extent the 11th and the 22nd) also abridged rights, despite its repeal with the 21st Amendment. /end nitpick ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-torture-good-marriage-bad/245584/13 "2004-05-17T15:41:46Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > And I forgot to address this, too. This is incorrect. The 18th Amendment (and to a lesser extent the 11th and the 22nd) also abridged rights, despite its repeal with the 21st Amendment. > > /end nitpick That’s why I specified a “class” of citizens. Prohibition was not discriminatory, it applied to everyone equally. Bush’s proposed amendment singles out a _specific group of people_ and says that should be treated differently than everybody else. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-torture-good-marriage-bad/245584/14 "2004-05-17T16:13:38Z")
marriage = bad torture = good but marriage = torture, therefore bad = good. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-torture-good-marriage-bad/245584/15 "2004-05-17T16:15:15Z")
But, as its not likely to happen DtC, aren’t you ranting for no reason at all? I love this part: > [@DtC](#): > > And if he actually believes in this garbage (we all know Clinton didn’t give a crap, it was just coldly political with him. He was far too intelligent to really care about homosexuality) then he’s a moron. So, Clinton was just being brilliant and coldly political, but Bush is a moron. This in spite of the fact that Bush probably DOES realize this ammendment has about a snowballs chance in hell of getting through. To me, I think it was slimy but pretty brilliant of Bush to do this, for the same reasons you are attributing to Clinton…it was a good political move for him to rally the support of the right while being totally meaningless in the end as its not go a hope in hell of getting passed. Yet Bush is a moron and Clinton is a cold genius. Its this kind of underestimation of Bush thats going to get him 4 more years in office. > [@Evil Captor](#): > > Yeah, this is the corner your precious Bushco has backed you into now: you have to defend the torture at Abu Ghraib as just a bunch of fraternity hazings, or as a necessary adjunct to the war on terror (even though most at Abu Ghraib are innocent of any terrorist activity) and attack the right of two people of the same sex to express their love through marriage. Strawman much? Why would anyone have to either defend or excuse what happened at Abu Ghraib? It was a crime, its being punished as a crime. Its not representative of our military, no more than a guy robbing a corner 7-11 or a sicko serial killer wacking nuns is representative of our citizens. Both are simply criminal activity. As to the other, well I seriously doubt more Bush supporters needed HIM to tell them to be against same sex marriage. At least most Bush supporters of the paleo-republican stripe. Bush didn’t pronounce from on high and they suddenly saw the light and became anti-gay. :rolleyes: Bush is capitalizing on the fact that the majority of Americans are (stupidly) against gay unions at this time for political reasons, not the other way around. Sheesh. > [@Evil Captor](#): > > So remember: torture good, marriage bad. And if you get a funny feeling when you say that, it’s just what’s left of your sense of morality trying to survive. You’ve obviously never been married. 🙂 Also, this kind of ‘debate’ belongs better in The Pit, IMO. Its kind of thin, and mostly full of hand waving and vitriol. Perfect for The Pit. Why don’t you try that out next time you feel the need to howl at the moon? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-torture-good-marriage-bad/245584/16 "2004-05-17T16:19:42Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > That’s why I specified a “class” of citizens. Prohibition was not discriminatory, it applied to everyone equally. Bush’s proposed amendment singles out a _specific group of people_ and says that should be treated differently than everybody else. You might want to check out some of the literature used to sell Prohibition to the public. It was very discriminatory and inflaminatory, especially against “drunken Irish”. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-torture-good-marriage-bad/245584/17 "2004-05-17T16:41:16Z")
> [@](#): > > marriage = bad > > torture = good > > but marriage = torture, therefore bad = good. Crap, John Mace just frickin broke the universe. We don’t have long… ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-torture-good-marriage-bad/245584/18 "2004-05-17T16:42:12Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > You might want to check out some of the literature used to sell Prohibition to the public. It was very discriminatory and inflaminatory, especially against “drunken Irish”. Nevertheless, it was not discriminatory in its application. It did not say that alcohol was only forbidden for the Irish. It forbid it for everyone. Bush wants an amendment which will forbid a civil right only to a specific group of people. **xtisme** , I said DOMA was stupid and wrong and that Clinton was wrong to sign it. I didn’t say it was “brilliant” for him to do so, only that it was calculating. My comment about his intelligence was only as it pertained to his personal feelings. Even Clinton’s worst enemies acknowledge that he has a brilliant intellect. I think BC was too smart to think that gay marriage was really a threat to anyone (and I reiterate, BC didn’t try to _ban_ it). By contrast, GWB really believes that homos are going to hurt him. He is not an intelligent man. Don’t forget, this is the same guy who thinks Jews can’t go to Heaven and that the “jury is still out” on evolution. He also thinks God wants him to kill brown people. I see no evidence of self-reflection hidden intellectual acumen. Moreover, a proposal to actively _ban_ same-sex marriage on a Constitutional level is fundamentally different than a federal law which only says that states may choose to honor them or not at their own discretion. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-torture-good-marriage-bad/245584/19 "2004-05-17T17:01:44Z")
Bush has many flaws. It really isn’t necessary to invent non-existent ones: > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > By contrast, GWB really believes that homos are going to hurt him. Huh? Got any evidence to back that claim up? > [@](#): > > He is not an intelligent man. Your opinion-- and not suported by the facts. We’ve been over this at least half a dozen times, and it just doesn’t stand up to even casual scrutiny. > [@](#): > > Don’t forget, this is the same guy who thinks Jews can’t go to Heaven I’m not sure if he actually believes this, but if I were a Christian, I would believe it, too. It’s a logical extension of Christian doctrine. Otherwise, why get Baptized? > [@](#): > > and that the “jury is still out” on evolution. I’ll grant you that one, although we still lack a fleshed-out understanding of exactly what Bush’s “beliefs” are about evolution. Many religious people have a tortured belief system to accomodate the obvious scientific facts and their own religious convictions. > [@](#): > > He also thinks God wants him to kill brown people. So gross an exageration that it borders on outright lying. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-torture-good-marriage-bad/245584/20 "2004-05-17T17:23:50Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > DOMA, while stupid, does not actually _forbid_ s provides a loophole in the Full Faith and Credit Clause, which means that anti-gay states don’t have to recognize gay marriages from other states. > n the US Constitution. fortunately, they were merely pissing into the wind, when they passed DOMA Even as we post. happy couples are fanning out across the nation to file in federal district court to enforce full faith and credit. you cannot create a loophole in the constitution via legislative action. That’s why they call it a Constitution. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-torture-good-marriage-bad/245584.md?page=2)