# Republicans want more murders and rapes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 24, 2011, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-want-more-murders-and-rapes/600613 "2011-10-24T09:55:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-want-more-murders-and-rapes/600613/1 "2011-10-24T09:55:31Z")
Biden got alot of mileage recently by claiming that his political enemies want more murders and rapes…or would be responsible for … or whatever he was trying to say. That was based on their opposition to Obama’s jobs bill which would allegedly put X number of cops on the street. Using Biden’s logic … 1. Would he and his boss be responsible for some murders and rapes themselves if the bill passed because they didn’t call for x plus 10,000 cops on the street? 2. What of the money that his admin and allies have pissed away on green jobs and the like… if they used it for cops on the street there would have been fewer murders and rapes. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-want-more-murders-and-rapes/600613/2 "2011-10-24T11:05:34Z")
So does it also bother you when [Herman Cain says that Democrats want to destroy America](http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/cain-doubles-down-claim-liberals-want-dest)? They’re politicians. They live and die by rhetoric and exaggeration. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-want-more-murders-and-rapes/600613/3 "2011-10-24T11:26:05Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > Biden got alot of mileage recently by claiming that his political enemies want more murders and rapes…or would be responsible for … or whatever he was trying to say. > > That was based on their opposition to Obama’s jobs bill which would allegedly put X number of cops on the street. > > Using Biden’s logic … > > 1. Would he and his boss be responsible for some murders and rapes themselves if the bill passed because they didn’t call for x plus 10,000 cops on the street? > > 2. What of the money that his admin and allies have pissed away on green jobs and the like… if they used it for cops on the street there would have been fewer murders and rapes. Before we examine Biden’s logic, shouldn’t we examine Biden’s words? Cite, please. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-want-more-murders-and-rapes/600613/4 "2011-10-24T12:22:50Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > \*\*Republicans want more murders and rapes \*\* 🙂 Why then, my dears, you shall **have** them! [waves wand] [animation ensues] ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-want-more-murders-and-rapes/600613/5 "2011-10-24T12:24:10Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Before we examine Biden’s logic, shouldn’t we examine Biden’s words? Cite, please. That examination has already been done. > [@](#): > > We have looked at the numbers. We started with the number of reported rapes, because Biden makes three claims that don’t add up: that rapes have gone up from 91 to 229 (a 152 percent increase), that rapes have “quadrupled,” and that rapes have tripled. He’s badly wrong on all counts. The FBI’s Uniform Crime Reports for those years show that the number of reported rapes declined from 103 in 2008 to 92 in 2010, or a nearly 11 percent drop. > [@](#): > > Update, Oct. 23: We have now found that rape figures reported by Flint to the Michigan State Police confirm rapes declined in the city from 2008 to 2010. We also found that the broader category of “criminal sexual contact” (CSC) was also down. State Police figures show a 10 percent reduction in total CSC reports between 2008 (242) and 2010 (217). Also, murder, rape and robbery are declining this year in spite of police layoffs in Flint, Mich., according to the most recent official report released by the State Police. For more information, please read our Wire item, “Biden’s Flint Fiasco, Continued.” [Cite](http://factcheck.org/2011/10/bidens-whopper-in-flint-mich/). Biden is not known for his scrupulous adherence to the truth in his rhetoric - this appears to be another example. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-want-more-murders-and-rapes/600613/6 "2011-10-24T12:55:28Z")
We have spend the money to have those extra cops on the street, because you can’t put a price on a child’s life. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-want-more-murders-and-rapes/600613/7 "2011-10-24T13:12:34Z")
From **Shodan** ’s cite, it appears the Vice President is, at best, seriously exaggerating the crime statistics from Flint, MI (especially the rape statistics, which have actually dropped, not increased in the period Biden was referring to–murders have gone up, though not as much as Biden states). He should not do that. On the other hand, I didn’t hear _anything_ in those clips of Biden’s speeches to suggest he said that “his political enemies want more murders and rapes” or “Republicans want more murders and rapes”. He said that, if this bill is not passed, then such-and-such bad things will happen. I’m kind of at a loss as to how any politician is supposed to argue on behalf of any action without that kind of statement–“If this tax cut is not passed, jobs will be lost”; “If this war is not waged, Americans will be attacked”; “If this education bill is not passed, our children will fall further behind other countries in math and science”. Of course it would be utterly demagogic to actually say that one’s opponents _want_ more crime, more joblessness, more terrorist attacks, less-well-educated children–as opposed to implying that (of course) they want less crime, more jobs, fewer terrorist attacks, better-educated children, but are just tragically misguided in the way they are going about meeting those goals. Any cite for Biden actually saying anything like “Republicans want more murders and rapes”? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-want-more-murders-and-rapes/600613/8 "2011-10-24T13:20:14Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > We have spend the money to have those extra cops on the street, because you can’t put a price on a child’s life. Really? If we spend that much money, will no children die? How much money do we need to spend in order for no children to die? As for the OP, I pretty much agree with **MEBuckner’s** analysis, above. Thread title misleading, but the OP gets some credit for toning down the charge in the actual OP. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-want-more-murders-and-rapes/600613/9 "2011-10-24T13:20:59Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > That was based on their opposition to Obama’s jobs bill which would allegedly put X number of cops on the street. > > Using Biden’s logic … Wouldn’t the jobs bill only put more cops on the street for a single year? By Biden’s logic, Democrats only care about crime during an election year. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-want-more-murders-and-rapes/600613/10 "2011-10-24T14:06:40Z")
Of course, Biden is not only talking (misleadingly) about statistics - he is also making other inflammatory comments in his unique style: > [@](#): > > In Philadelphia on Tuesday, standing with Philadelphia Police Commissioner Charles Ramsey and other officers at Houston Hall at the University of Pennsylvania, the vice president said that one argument he’s “heard from my friends who oppose” the jobs bill is that “this is just temporary.” > > “Well let me tell you, it’s not temporary when that 911 call comes in and a woman’s being raped if a cop shows up in time to prevent the rape,” he continued. “It’s not temporary to that woman. > > “It’s not temporary to the guy whose store is being held up and a gun is being pointed to his head,” he continued, “if a cop shows up and he’s not killed, that’s not temporary to that store owner. > > “Give me a break, ‘temporary’!” the Veep said. “I wish these guys that thought it’s temporary, I wish they had some notion what it’s like to be on the other side of a gun. Or a 200 pound man standing over you telling you to submit. Folks, it matters. It matters!” [From here.](http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/10/vp-biden-wishes-opponents-of-more-police-funding-had-some-notion-of-what-its-like-to-have-a-200-pound-man-standing-over-them-telling-them-to-submit/) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-want-more-murders-and-rapes/600613/11 "2011-10-24T14:14:22Z")
> [@](#): > > “Well let me tell you, it’s not temporary when that 911 call comes in and a woman’s being raped if a cop shows up in time to prevent the rape,” he continued. Joe Biden-Time Cop! ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-want-more-murders-and-rapes/600613/12 "2011-10-24T14:26:09Z")
If any Republican gave that same ‘inflammatory’ speech that Biden did in favor of one of their bills, he’d be hailed as a hero of the people and the Tea Party would already have an ad up showing the opposition raping a little old lady on the 50 yard like of the Pontiac Dome. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-want-more-murders-and-rapes/600613/13 "2011-10-24T14:29:04Z")
But a Republican didn’t make the speech; the Vice-President did. Did you have any opinion about it in that context? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-want-more-murders-and-rapes/600613/14 "2011-10-24T14:33:14Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > But a Republican didn’t make the speech; the Vice-President did. Did you have any opinion about it in that context? > > Regards, > Shodan Sure. The fact that the vice-president made a speech _at all_ is reason enough to find fault with it…in some partisan circles. This makes comparing it to speeches from the other side of the fence totally justified if one wishes to know if what he said was ridiculous in and of itself. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-want-more-murders-and-rapes/600613/15 "2011-10-24T14:52:06Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Sure. The fact that the vice-president made a speech _at all_ is reason enough to find fault with it…in some partisan circles. This makes comparing it to speeches from the other side of the fence totally justified if one wishes to know if what he said was ridiculous in and of itself. That’s so - but **Jack Batty** wasn’t comparing this with a specific speech, he was comparing this with a hypothetical speech. I don’t know whether that can easily be done - my hypothetical might play out differently than his. If he has a specific example in mind, that might help a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-want-more-murders-and-rapes/600613/16 "2011-10-24T14:55:41Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > So does it also bother you when [Herman Cain says that Democrats want to destroy America](http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/cain-doubles-down-claim-liberals-want-dest)? > > They’re politicians. They live and die by rhetoric and exaggeration. You’re giving ridiculous assertions a pass because “they’re politicians” and both Left and Right do the same thing. It’s far better to hold each liar / exaggerator / sound-bite-spewing idiot accountable for their ridiculous assertions regardless of politics. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-want-more-murders-and-rapes/600613/17 "2011-10-24T14:56:18Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Sure. The fact that the vice-president made a speech _at all_ is reason enough to find fault with it…in some partisan circles. This makes comparing it to speeches from the other side of the fence totally justified if one wishes to know if what he said was ridiculous in and of itself. As far as I know, _tu quoque_ is never “justified” in a debate. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-want-more-murders-and-rapes/600613/18 "2011-10-24T14:57:26Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > But a Republican didn’t make the speech; the Vice-President did. Did you have any opinion about it in that context? > > Regards, > Shodan Czarcasm’s addendum and Mr. Moto’s criticism aside … I think it was a fine speech, that didn’t nearly approach the over-the-top rhetoric it is being accused of. It addressed a specific point to the jobs bill and discussed the ramifications of it not passing. I’m pretty sure he was even wearing a lapel-flag pin, so it’s got to be all on the up and up. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-want-more-murders-and-rapes/600613/19 "2011-10-24T15:13:25Z")
So the blatant misrepresentations do not bother you? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-want-more-murders-and-rapes/600613/20 "2011-10-24T15:14:09Z")
The blantant misrepresentation that with fewer cops, crime tends to go up. Yeah, I’m solid with that. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-want-more-murders-and-rapes/600613.md?page=2)