# Republicans' war on transgender people: Omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 3, 2022, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609 "2022-06-03T02:20:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2023, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609/421 "2023-03-05T20:01:55Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > Things like cancer are objectively detectable conditions which may be fatal if not treated. The rate of self-harm among trans-identified teenagers is above 50%. Gender dysphoria absolutely can be fatal if not treated. > [@filmore](#): > > Something like genital reassignment surgery is going to be much harder to reverse and is something best left until after they are an adult and will likely be more confident in their gender identity. Minor children are not getting gender reassignment surgery. The idea that they are is pure right wing fear mongering bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2023, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609/422 "2023-03-05T20:12:08Z")
Reiterating what @Miller said, kids are not getting gender reassignment surgery. My trans granddaughter (13) is on puberty blockers, is not allowed to commence hormone therapy until she is at least 15 years old, and any surgery, top or bottom, will not be available until she is 18. The boogeyman of surgery on kids is just fuckmongering from the ignoramuses. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2023, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609/423 "2023-03-05T20:17:11Z")
> [@fordgt100](#): > > I think the only person that should be involved in gender decision is the individual. Apparently you do not think that non-adults are “individuals”. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2023, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609/424 "2023-03-05T20:45:16Z")
To pile on to the responses, cancer diagnoses are _also_ subjective, as are their treatment plans. Doctors can and do disagree about both of those things, in general and in specific cases. And yes, the model case for these discussions should be a 16 year old on HRT, not gender reassignment surgery. Eta: and yes, there should be limits, if by limits you mean evidence based guidelines from and for medical practicioners. Those guidelines very much exist and are in line with what you suggest they should be. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2023, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609/425 "2023-03-05T20:54:57Z")
The reason it comes up in the Talmud is because Jewish law is highly gendered, and intersex conditions are common enough that the rabbis had to know how to handle people with non-standard equipment. Also, castrati were a thing, as were people who had lost a penis, and those people don’t count as fully male under Jewish law. This reference gives a very mechanical discussion > **[Six Sexes of the Talmud | Sefaria](https://www.sefaria.org/sheets/196414?lang=bi)** But the fact that it’s discussed in the Talmud gives modern rabbis a framework to deal with non-binary and transgender people today. Here’s a source that draws those connections: > **[The Eight Genders in the Talmud | My Jewish Learning](https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-eight-genders-in-the-talmud/)** > > Thought nonbinary gender was a modern concept? Think again. The ancient Jewish understanding of gender was far more nuanced than ... My boss is an Orthodox Jew, and his younger child recently came out as a trans woman. Their rabbi welcomed the young woman (she’s in high school, but old enough to be ritually considered an adult) to the woman’s side of the synagogue. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2023, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609/426 "2023-03-05T21:00:50Z")
There’s also a Jewish tradition that Jacob was actually a trans woman. It’s a minority tradition (two Jews, three opinions, and all that) but i ran across it recently because I’m on that sort of mailing list, and forwarded it to my boss, thinking he might be interested. He wrote back and thanked me, saying he’d read about that before, but it was before his daughter came out, when he didn’t care much, and he’d lost the reference, and so was very happy that I’d been able to provide it to him. So… minority, but something that a random politically liberal Orthodox Jew ran into without looking for it. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2023, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609/427 "2023-03-05T22:44:44Z")
> [@fordgt100](#): > > Government’s role in this should be zero. Tell that to Ron DeSantas, the Governor of Tennessee, and all those other people legislating what adults can or can’t do with their bodies. You know, the folks who belong to the “Organization for minimal government except when it comes to what adults choose to do with their bodies or other consenting adults”. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2023, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609/428 "2023-03-05T22:50:27Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > Things like cancer are objectively detectable conditions which may be fatal if not treated. Gender identity is subjective and may just be a phase that a minor is going through. As such, treatments for minors should have more limits than for adults. It’s not all that problematic for minors to have treatments that are relatively straightforward to reverse with minimal long-term consequences, such as hormone therapy and electrolysis. Something like breast surgery has more consequences, but even then it’s probably okay. Something like genital reassignment surgery is going to be much harder to reverse and is something best left until after they are an adult and will likely be more confident in their gender identity. 1. NO ONE ethical or licensed in the US is doing “genital reassignment surgery” on minors (outside of intersex conditions). This is not happening. Can people please stop repeating this myth? Thank you. 2. These bills are NOT just limited to surgery - which I think we all agree should not be done until _after_ the person in question is legally adult - but ALL forms of gender-related therapy, including puberty blockers, just plain old counseling, or even calling a child by the name they prefer rather than the name they were assigned at birth. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2023, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609/429 "2023-03-05T22:54:55Z")
“I am conflicted about row versus wade; sometimes I want to paddle my canoe in shallow waters and sometimes I just walk through them.” Serious issues can be badly misconstrued when you don’t understand them. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2023, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609/430 "2023-03-05T23:03:46Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > or even calling a child by the name they prefer rather than the name they were assigned at birth. And that’s not a new thing, either. Every teacher since forever has had a few students in their class who go by a different name than what’s officially on the roster, and every teacher who’s even halfway decent at teaching has respected those names. So now, a small fraction of those students who use a different name now have a different reason for using that different name. This is not a crisis. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2023, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609/431 "2023-03-05T23:09:52Z")
This is where @filmore and @fordgt100 come back to the thread and say, yes, thanks for that information regarding gender reassignment surgery on minors (or the total lack thereof) and apologize for spreading right-wing fear-mongering bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2023, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609/432 "2023-03-05T23:27:31Z")
I think it’s important to be specific about these issues because the vagueness is what the conservatives latch onto. When supporters say “Minors should have access to gender affirming medical procedures”, they don’t define which procedures they’re talking about. Do they mean all gender medical procedures or just some of them? This gives conservatives a nice big handle to latch on to and say that supporters are promoting gender reassignment surgery for teens since that’s one part of gender affirming medical procedures. If supporters are expecting conservatives to understand the nuances of which procedures they are supporting for minors and which ones they aren’t, that’s a big mistake. I’m not saying I’m opposed to gender reassignment surgery in minors because of some right-wing fear-mongering bullshit. I’m opposed to it because it’s a very significant procedure and I don’t feel that every teen making that decision is mature enough to make it. I’m sure it’s the right decision for some teens, but some teens would regret it. Waiting until 18 doesn’t seem like that big of a problem for that kind of surgery considering the consequences if they later regret it. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2023, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609/433 "2023-03-05T23:30:51Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > This is where @filmore and @fordgt100 come back to the thread and say, yes, thanks for that information regarding gender reassignment surgery on minors (or the total lack thereof) and apologize for spreading right-wing fear-mongering bullshit. Well, it was a nice thought. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2023, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609/434 "2023-03-05T23:35:30Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > I think it’s important to be specific about these issues because the vagueness is what the conservatives latch onto. We are. The Republicans vaguely say “We oppose all gender-affirming care for minors”, and then the sane people all say “You know that the bills they’re putting forward include basic things like suicide prevention counseling and using people’s correct names, right?”. And then the Republicans say “Well I don’t think that minors should be having genital surgery, and you’re not going to change my mind.”. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2023, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609/435 "2023-03-05T23:48:41Z")
Gender reassignment surgery for minors isn’t a thing, do we really need to specify that we’re not advocating support for something that doesn’t happen? Should we also clarify that illegal alien issues aren’t about Klingons and Wookiees?! ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2023, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609/436 "2023-03-06T00:00:13Z")
Well it can be a thing, if a child with gender dysphoria attempts suicide half a dozen times and doesn’t live in an environment that can keep them safe, it may be the best course of action. It’s exceedingly rare, but for that reason I wouldn’t support a law banning it. To @filmore, the bills that are being proposed and debated are choosing the language, and those are conservative bills. If they don’t want people lumping in basic gender affirming counseling then they shouldn’t include such treatment in their bills. There’s a reason the bills cover _all_ gender affirming treatments, though. It’s because they don’t actually give a shit about the children, just about winning the culture war. They don’t want to ban gender reassignment surgery, they want to ban trans people. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2023, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609/437 "2023-03-06T00:36:13Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Well it can be a thing, if a child with gender dysphoria attempts suicide half a dozen times and doesn’t live in an environment that can keep them safe, it may be the best course of action. It’s exceedingly rare, but for that reason I wouldn’t support a law banning it. > … > There’s a reason the bills cover _all_ gender affirming treatments, though. It’s because they don’t actually give a shit about the children, just about winning the culture war. They don’t want to ban gender reassignment surgery, they want to ban trans people. If we could discuss this rationally, then we could discuss the issues you bring up about how it may be useful in certain situations. I assume that by the criteria you are using to frame your answer, you would support gender reassignment surgery when it’s a critical need, but perhaps not as a common part of gender treatment in minors. Does that mean you support it or you don’t? If you support it, but just under certain situations, I don’t see a problem with that. I agree with your point. If the need is serious, then it may be warranted. And I agree that the Republicans are doing this as a way to harm trans people. But I shake my head that the trans supporters give them so much ammo. They give quotes that play right into the Fox News audience. Instead of saying “We support gender affirming care for minors”, they should say something like “We support the AMA guidelines for gender affirming care for minors”. The latter statement is much harder to take out of context. And to be honest, the shit I’m taking for expressing my opinion is part of the problem. Does anyone really have a problem with my stance? Does it really warrant this kind of push back? It just pushes well-meaning people out of the conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2023, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609/438 "2023-03-06T00:38:42Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > And I agree that the Republicans are doing this as a way to harm trans people. But I shake my head that the trans supporters give them so much ammo. The hallmark of dedicated enlightened centrist. You can both-sides anything. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2023, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609/439 "2023-03-06T00:43:14Z")
I support medical decisions being left up to medical professionals and their patients. When you say “treatments for minors should have more limits than for adults”, it sounds like you’re implying that someone, maybe a government, needs to set those limits. If you’re just saying that the AMA or the APA should set those limits in terms of recommended treatments then we’re 100% in agreement. And they do. So nothing else needs to be done. But I’ve seen conservatives call the AMA and the APA groomers, so I don’t think the debate is where you think it is. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2023, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609/440 "2023-03-06T01:51:05Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > The Bible says nothin’ about him changing someone’s gender. /s Well, he turned water into wine, sooooooo… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609.md?page=23)