# Republicans' war on transgender people: Omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 3, 2022, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609 "2022-06-03T02:20:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 57
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609/1121 "2023-08-08T17:19:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Okay. So do you now understand why your original question about an effeminate gay boy is a non sequitur? No, because it’s not. I’d ask you to read my longish post to **Babale**. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609/1122 "2023-08-08T17:21:35Z")
So, I made a mistake and immediately admitted my error when it was pointed out. And that hurts my credibility. Funny stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609/1123 "2023-08-08T17:25:56Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > No, because it’s not. I’d ask you to read my longish post to **Babale**. Your post to **Babale** makes exactly the same mistake of conflating sexuality with gender identity. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609/1124 "2023-08-08T17:45:04Z")
If you’d like to point it out I will admit to making the same error and commit it there, as well. To be clear, for you and others: It is my opinion that gender and sexuality are two different things. And any gender can express their sexuality in myriad ways, regardless of body parts or how people choose to present themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609/1125 "2023-08-08T17:46:31Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > If you’d like to point it out I will admit to making the same error and commit it there, as well. Here: > [@magellan01](#): > > So I was thinking about this group and wondering what separates the ex-trans boys who grew up to be heterosexual from the ex-trans boys that grew up to be gay. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609/1126 "2023-08-08T18:03:57Z")
I apologize if any of the _very_ common words and/or terms I used confused you. Thank you, though, for the excellent example of projection in that closing sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609/1127 "2023-08-08T18:57:04Z")
The [site’s main page tells you everything you need to know about the site and dismiss it](https://www.billboardchris.com/). ---
**Author:** ![Mr.E](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.e/32/8932_2.png) [@Mr.E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.E)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609/1128 "2023-08-08T19:04:19Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > It’s not nonsense. It just is something you either don’t want to or can’t answer. Yes, someone’s gender is separate from their sexual orientation. I’m trying to understand what it is that makes a kid “trans”, as opposed to exploring sexuality in less traditional ways. Despite your continued conflation of “gender” and “sexuality” I thought I would try to answer the question you’re asking anyway. Lots of kids explore gender in, as you put it, less traditional ways. More and more young people identify as “non-binary” and refuse to adhere to either masculine or feminine gender. We tend not to hear about them because non-binary people are less likely to seek out the sorts of treatments that Republicans clutch their pearls over. That said, western culture is firmly oriented toward a male-female binary, so many people decide to identify closely as one or the other. There’s nothing wrong with that, and it’s no more or less valid than being non-binary. Sometimes these people pursue treatment, sometimes not, and again either way is valid. There’s no wrong way to be trans or express your gender identity. Lastly, I know quite a few trans women and every one of them is a lesbian or bisexual. It’s hardly scientific, but the vast majoirty of the trans women I’ve heard of also tend in that direction. I think the notion that “effeminate gay men” are a major source of trans women is flawed and assuming many incorrect things about the relation of gender to sexuality. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609/1129 "2023-08-08T19:17:31Z")
Okay. To answer your question straight up – what separates trans women from gay men is that trans women have determined that their gender identity is “woman”, and gay men have determined that their gender identity is “man” (and the latter group is only sexually attracted to other men). There are others who might not identify as either (but rather non-binary or some other categorization). ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609/1130 "2023-08-08T19:28:51Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > If you’d like to point it out I will admit to making the same error and commit it there, as well. I don’t know if it makes exactly the same error, but your long post is a mess. For example: > [@magellan01](#): > > Gender dysphoria is a real thing. Yet, according to one study, for boys who go through puberty without it being interfered with, 87.8% saw their dysphoria go away. And 63.6% grew up to be gay. So there’s seems to be a pretty strong correlation between having gender dysphoria as a kid and growing up to be gay What do they mean by “gender dysphoria”? Were all of these kids experiencing the same thing? Were they all diagnosed by people who were using the same criteria? > [@magellan01](#): > > So I was thinking about this group and wondering what separates the ex-trans boys who grew up to be heterosexual from the ex-trans boys that grew up to be gay. Do we know? This is where you go careening off the rails. Your set was “children experiencing gender dysphoria”, some of whom grew up to be straight and cis, others grew up to be gay and cis, and some of whom grew up to be trans. But now you’re talkong about “ex-trans” kids. There weren’t any ex-trans kids. There weren’t even any trans kids, at least according to the information you provided - just kids experiencing gender dysphoria, some of whom would identify as trans later on. The medical treatment for gender dysphoria isn’t to immediately jump to bottom surgery. First there’s an intense period of psychiatric evaluation during which it is determined whether any kind of gender affirming care is even appropriate. Did the kids in your study get medical treatment? Did doctors analyze whether they needed gender afirming care or not? You mention that these children went through puberty - maybe it was because doctors determined that gender affirming care was not appropriate that they went through puberty? > [@magellan01](#): > > The reason I ask this is that if it turns out that having kids who feel they are trans go through puberty eliminates their gender dysphoria, Kids with gender dysphoria != kids who feel they are trans. Some kids with gender dysphoria find that gender affirming care (whether that’s medical intervention such as puberty blockers or simply presenting as the other gender or a hundred and one other scenarios) helps their dysphoria, and those kids may identify as trans. But not every single person who experiences gender dysphoria is trans, and not every trans person needs medical intervention. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609/1131 "2023-08-08T19:53:38Z")
For instance, i have a close friend who experienced a great deal of gender dysphoria. And he finally came out as a person who was not comfortable with his gender. And he sought therapy. And he spent a couple of years exploring his gender identity. And at the end of that, he still identifies as a man. He’s now openly a gender-non-conforming man. He wears dresses and carries a cute purse. He was assigned make at birth, still has all his original parts, is not on hormone therapy, is sexually attracted to women, and identifies as queer, but also as a heterosexual male. Gender dysphoria \<\> trans. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609/1132 "2023-08-08T20:26:25Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > What do they mean by “gender dysphoria”? Were all of these kids experiencing the same thing? Were they all diagnosed by people who were using the same criteria? I doubt any two were identical. But your comment here just seems to be niggling. If you’d like, feel free to read the study. > [@Babale](#): > > But now you’re talkong about “ex-trans” kids. There weren’t any ex-trans kids. There weren’t even any trans kids, at least according to the information you provided - just kids experiencing gender dysphoria, some of whom would identify as trans later on. What I meant by that is kids who had expressed gender dysphoria at a younger age and later realized they were either straight or gay. > [@Babale](#): > > Kids with gender dysphoria != kids who feel they are trans. Some kids with gender dysphoria find that gender affirming care (whether that’s medical intervention such as puberty blockers or simply presenting as the other gender or a hundred and one other scenarios) helps their dysphoria, and those kids may identify as trans. But not every single person who experiences gender dysphoria is trans, and not every trans person needs medical intervention. I’m pretty sure I agree with this. One point of confusion: when do you consider someone “trans”? What’s the line between someone being trans or not? If it’s not dependent upon surgery or hormones or attire/presentation, what’s the defining “it”? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609/1133 "2023-08-08T20:28:25Z")
Again, that’s my thinking, as well. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609/1134 "2023-08-08T20:34:12Z")
I agree with what you wrote, as well. Except possibly this: > [@Mr.E](#): > > I think the notion that “effeminate gay men” are a major source of trans women is flawed and assuming many incorrect things about the relation of gender to sexuality. According to the study, of the males experiencing gender dysphoria, after having gone through puberty, a majority of them identified as gay. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609/1135 "2023-08-08T20:36:54Z")
Speaking as a hetero cis male – and not defending or rebutting anyone in this thread – I think a big part of the confusion people like me often experience is that _our_ sexual orientation feels like an essential component of _our_ gender as assigned at birth. (IOW, being attracted to females has always felt like something that was hardwired into me as a male.) So it’s easy to see why someone might assume that a trans woman would have transitioned (at least in part) because she was always attracted to males. Separating “the gender you believe is yours” and “the gender you’re attracted to” was a new concept to me not many years ago, and clearly still is to a lot of well-meaning (and other) people. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609/1136 "2023-08-08T20:39:37Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > One point of confusion: when do you consider someone “trans”? What’s the line between someone being trans or not? If it’s not dependent upon surgery or hormones or attire/presentation, what’s the defining “it”? A person who was assigned one sex at birth but identifies as the other sex is trans. It’s really that simple. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609/1137 "2023-08-08T20:53:44Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > He’s now openly a gender-non-conforming man. Another new concept to this older straight cis guy! My friend’s son wears makeup, jewelry and long, feminine hair styles, as well as dresses and other female-styled clothing. (He’s gorgeous, btw.) Yet he still calls himself a boy (he’s 18), using his given male name and male pronouns. I’ll never be able to relate, but I’m glad I can stand back and admire someone owning their identity so openly. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609/1138 "2023-08-08T20:58:00Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > > [@magellan01](#): > > > > Here’s a link to the page I got the information from: [The Studies — 🅑🅘🅛🅛🅑🅞🅐🅡🅓 🅒🅗🅡🅘🅢](https://www.billboardchris.com/the-studies) > > Is that a real source? It looks like a parody. Apparently the site is run by some random dude with no credentials other than “dad” that’s outraged by puberty blockers and spends his days walking around inside a sandwich board sign denouncing puberty blockers. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609/1139 "2023-08-08T21:22:10Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > A person who was assigned one sex at birth but identifies as the other sex is trans. It’s really that simple. Okay, this is helpful. Thanks. Let me ask a question concerning three people, all biological females. Person A: 11 years old biological female, identifies more with male peers and stereotypically boy things, and feels she was meant to be a boy and wants to be called Don instead of Donna. Person B: 16 year old biological female, identifies as male, goes by Henry instead of her given name of Henrietta, dresses like a stereotypical adolescent boy and is more interested in going out for the football team than the cheerleading squad. With the guidance of a therapist, he has been taking puberty blockers and just had top surgery. Person C: 23 year old biological female, identifies as a male, goes by Chris instead of her given name of Chloe, is living as a stereotypical male. She has been under the care of a therapist for ten years and has had full surgeries so her body aligns with her gender identity. She has moved to a new town and is living as a male with no one even aware of her biological female roots. So, by your metric, Person A, B, and C are all trans. Is that right? Assuming so, let’s introduce Person D. Person D is also a biological female. At 11 years old she thought she might be trans. She/he dressed like a boy and went by Steven instead of Samantha. She/he had a professional therapist, but never took hormones. She went through puberty and afterwards, realized she really did feel like she was a girl and started presenting herself as Samantha. Eventually, she found partner of the opposite sex, got married and had children. My question is, is Person D also trans? I’ll leave it there for now as I’m curious to your answer. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609/1140 "2023-08-08T21:24:08Z")
If you a few minutes to watch a few of his videos or interviews, I’d be curious as to what you think of his position. And where you think he is in error. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609.md?page=56) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-war-on-transgender-people-omnibus-thread/965609.md?page=58)