# "Republicans," what's your take on John Kerry and Swiftboating? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 15, 2013, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411 "2013-12-15T21:57:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/181 "2013-12-17T18:17:44Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Sure, Republicans were happy to pay for the ads giving these guys a microphone, but this wasn’t a “front group” unless you define that very loosely. Odd, then, isn’t it, that the group _didn’t actually exist_ during all of Kerry’s long service in the Senate or in any of his campaigns for it (not to mention his term as Lt. Gov. before that), until he declared for President. Then it somehow spontaneously arose and was rapidly organized and funded. What a remarkable coincidence that was! Come on now. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/182 "2013-12-17T18:24:42Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Ad 1 was about his service _entirely_. And you omitted the book, which also was mostly about his service. It might be (I believe you). I just didn’t get that from the description, and I don’t have the energy to watch the ad. I did omit the book. Most becuase I don’t know enough about it. I also wonder about the effect of these sorts of books (there are a pile written every election), but that’s a side issue. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/183 "2013-12-17T18:27:07Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Odd, then, isn’t it, that the group _didn’t actually exist_ during all of Kerry’s long service in the Senate or in any of his campaigns for it (not to mention his term as Lt. Gov. before that), until he declared for President. You mean, until he declared for president and based his campaign heavily upon his service in Vietnam. Of course him running for president was what incited the Swift Boat Veterans to speak out against him. I don’t think that’s a surprise. Winning the democratic primary has a way of getting people’s attention. What’s your theory? The swift boat people all really liked Kerry and did this for no reason? Bought off with money? Brainwashed by Karl Rove? Let’s hear this conspiracy, if you’ve got a different theory. The truth is simply enough to understand. Kerry served honorably, but after the war did and said things that really angered many of those he served with. Then when he made his service central in his campaign to be president these old enemies of his rose up against him and spoke out. They mostly spoke out about his actions after the war but also called into question some actions during the war. The actions during the war is a he said/she said with no real proof either way. The actions after the war are well documented and probably because of that three out of the four ads we saw in our earlier cite focused on that. No conspiracy is needed to explain this. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/184 "2013-12-17T18:47:09Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > You mean, until he declared for president and based his campaign heavily upon his service in Vietnam. Of course him running for president was what incited the Swift Boat Veterans to speak out against him. What do you think he based all of his Senate campaigns on, then? And why did this “organization” _not even fucking exist_ then? > [@](#): > > What’s your theory? The swift boat people all really liked Kerry and did this for no reason? Bought off with money? Brainwashed by Karl Rove? Let’s hear this conspiracy, if you’ve got a different theory. Look up Jerome Corsi sometime. Let us know what you find out about him. “Brainwashed by Rove” is not the best term for the rest, but “acting in common interest” covers it. > [@](#): > > No conspiracy is needed to explain this. No, only a desire to believe what one wishes to be true. Unfortunately, we deal with evidence here. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/185 "2013-12-17T18:51:02Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > What’s your theory? The swift boat people all really liked Kerry and did this for no reason? Bought off with money? Brainwashed by Karl Rove? Let’s hear this conspiracy, if you’ve got a different theory. Perhaps the SwiftVets were mostly guys with RW politics and did not want any Dem ousting W? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/186 "2013-12-17T18:55:48Z")
… and, despite all their bleating about their own honor as veterans being besmirched by Kerry, were entirely willing to tell lies in the cause of re-electing a Republican? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/187 "2013-12-17T19:01:41Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > What do you think he based all of his Senate campaigns on, then? And why did this “organization” _not even fucking exist_ then? Well, are any of them from Massachusetts? Few people care much about other states’ Lt. Governors or Senators. Many people care about the President, as he directly represents them. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/188 "2013-12-17T19:10:46Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > What’s this mean, exactly? Are you disputing that many actual veterans from Vietnam were in the group? That they didn’t like Kerry very much? Sure, Republicans were happy to pay for the ads giving these guys a microphone, but this wasn’t a “front group” unless you define that very loosely. I am stating that the group was largely funded by republicans, and referring to the fact that many people making claims against Kerry flip-flopped against previous positions in order to make him look bad. The whole thing stunk to high heavens. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/189 "2013-12-17T19:13:46Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Perhaps the SwiftVets were mostly guys with RW politics and did not want any Dem ousting W? Maybe. I admit it’s possible this played into it. But I think it’s much more likely that what Kerry’s commander said was the truth. He was angry with Kerry’s actions and statements after the war. Many military people don’t like Democrats. But almost all of them really hate what they perceive as betrayal from anti war types like Jane Fonda. What Kerry said after the war really pissed these guys off. It’s as simple as that. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/190 "2013-12-17T19:13:58Z")
**Human Action** : If any of these people really were as concerned as they professed about Kerry’s qualifications for high office, and basic morality for that matter, what would be the difference that it was the Senate and not the Presidency at hand? Are you suggesting that nobody in Massachusetts would care, or what? The Swifties didn’t care enough even to _exist_, I remind you. I would also add, based on my own having lived through every single fucking campaign Kerry ever ran, that this shit was never even mentioned a single fucking time in any of them. Few people care about other states’ Senators, you say? That’s not a well-supported opinion, to be charitable. Kerry was one of the most senior and influential leaders of his entire party, after a few terms, and it would be silly to claim that that was despite rather than because of his leadership and command of respect. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/191 "2013-12-17T19:15:24Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > But I think it’s much more likely that what Kerry’s commander said was the truth. He was angry with Kerry’s actions and statements after the war. Leaving aside the fact that we know the guy was either lying or not in a position to say the things he said, _what took him so damn long to say it?_ ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/192 "2013-12-17T19:16:48Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Well, are any of them from Massachusetts? Few people care much about other states’ Lt. Governors or Senators. > > Many people care about the President, as he directly represents them. Exactly. Nobody pays attention to Senators running for office nearly as much as a presidential election. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/193 "2013-12-17T19:20:34Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Leaving aside the fact that we know the guy was either lying or not in a position to say the things he said, _what took him so damn long to say it?_ What was Captain Adrian Lonsdale lying about exactly? I’m sure if you met him at a VFH hall long before Kerry’s presidential campaign and asked him over a drink what he thought about Kerry you’d probably get an earful. But no one would care because Kerry wasn’t running for president then. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/194 "2013-12-17T19:27:30Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > I am stating that the group was largely funded by republicans, Of course. No one disputes this. Who would you expect to fund an attack ad on a democratic candidate for president? > [@](#): > > and referring to the fact that many people making claims against Kerry flip-flopped against previous positions in order to make him look bad. I’m not sure what you’re talking about here. Got a cite for this claim? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/195 "2013-12-17T19:34:29Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > What was Captain Adrian Lonsdale lying about exactly? [Cite previously given.](http://swiftvets.eriposte.com/sbv_v_sbv.htm) > [@](#): > > 2.4 Medal simply based on “Kerry’s” report or not? > > [NOW] > George Elliott: “I did not expect my officers [Kerry] to be submitting inaccurate reports” > > [THEN] > George Elliott, a little earlier: “The group says Mr. Kerry himself wrote the reports that led to the medal. But Mr. Elliott and [Adrian] Lonsdale, who handled reports going up the line for recognition, have previously said that a medal would be awarded only if there was corroboration from others and that they had thoroughly corroborated the accounts.” > [@](#): > > 3.2 Medal based simply on “Kerry’s” report or not? > > [NOW] > SBV, today: “The group says Mr. Kerry himself wrote the reports that led to the medal [Silver Star].” > > [THEN] > George Elliott and Adrian Lonsdale, today: “But Mr. Elliott and Mr. Lonsdale, who handled reports going up the line for recognition, have previously said that a medal would be awarded only if there was corroboration from others and that they had thoroughly corroborated the accounts. > “Witness reports were reviewed; battle reports were reviewed,” Mr. Lonsdale said at the 1996 news conference, adding, “It was a very complete and carefully orchestrated procedure.” In his statements Mr. Elliott described the action that day as “intense” and “unusual.”…” > [@](#): > > 6.2 Lacks the capacity to lead or not? > > Other > > [NOW] > Adrian Lonsdale, today: “He lacks the capacity to lead.” > > [THEN] > Adrian Lonsdale, 1996: “He was among the finest of those Swift boat drivers.” > > Adrian Lonsdale, 1996: “As far as I was concerned, the war was won over there in that part for that period. And it was mainly won because of the bravado and the courage of the young officers that ran the boats, the SWIFT boats and the Coast Guard cutters and Senator Kerry was no exception.” > > Adrian Lonsdale, years ago: “I don’t like what he said after the war…But he was a good naval officer.” Dude. :dubious: > [@](#): > > But no one would care because Kerry wasn’t running for president then. Are you going to address the question asked of you in response or not? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/196 "2013-12-17T19:37:15Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > **Human Action** : If any of these people really were as concerned as they professed about Kerry’s qualifications for high office, and basic morality for that matter, what would be the difference that it was the Senate and not the Presidency at hand? Are you suggesting that nobody in Massachusetts would care, or what? The Swifties didn’t care enough even to _exist_, I remind you. I would also add, based on my own having lived through every single fucking campaign Kerry ever ran, that this shit was never even mentioned a single fucking time in any of them. It could be that they didn’t think anyone in Massachusetts would care, or that Massachusetts deserved a scoundrel\* like Kerry. More likely, the idea of John Kerry being a Senator in some far-off northeastern state\*\* just wasn’t on their outrage-radar. Kerry being elected Senator of Massachusetts just wouldn’t be the galvanizing force that his being nominated for President would be. Suddenly Kerry is on all their TVs, all the time, stumping for the highest office in the land, and not shying away from his service record. Phones start to ring, balls get rolling, money comes in, and there’s your SBVfT. - As they allegedly saw it, I’m not saying he’s a scoundrel. \*\* Roy Hoffman is from Missouri; Bud Day was from Florida, John O’Neill was from California; Adrian Lonsdale is from Washington state. [QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] Few people care about other states’ Senators, you say? That’s not a well-supported opinion, to be charitable. Kerry was one of the most senior and influential leaders of his entire party, after a few terms, and it would be silly to claim that that was despite rather than because of his leadership and command of respect. [/QUOTE] Relative to other Senators, he was prestigious and respected enough, sure. But that’s nothing compared to the Presidency. There’s a reason voter turnout is [vastly greater in years when the Presidency is up for election](http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0781453.html) than when it’s not: people care more (among other reasons, sure, but that’s a major one). How often does it happen that people from outside a Senator’s home state form an organization devoted to preventing his election? I mean, has it ever happened? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/197 "2013-12-17T19:42:20Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > It could be that they didn’t think anyone in Massachusetts would care, or that Massachusetts deserved a scoundrel\* like Kerry. They would have to have an actual organization to make that decision, no? They didn’t. > [@](#): > > More likely, the idea of John Kerry being a Senator in some far-off northeastern state\*\* just wasn’t on their outrage-radar. Sticking with that story, huh? Well, I guess you have to. > [@](#): > > How often does it happen that people from outside a Senator’s home state form an organization devoted to preventing his election? I mean, has it ever happened? Pretty much every fucking time, yes. Ever hear complaints from candidates about their opponents’ out-of-state funding sources? Or about candidates doing fundraising outside their home states? What the fuck do you call that? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/198 "2013-12-17T19:46:54Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > [Cite previously given.](http://swiftvets.eriposte.com/sbv_v_sbv.htm) > > Dude. :dubious: _shrug_ That’s all you’ve got? It seems clear based on his own statements that Lonsdale didn’t buy 100% into all the swift boat claims, but he did feel strongly enough about Kerry that he signed the letter. It’s entirely possible that he is simply telling the truth. He feels Kerry did serve honorably and led his men well. Yet due to his actions after the war he feels Kerry isn’t fit for command of the military. That’s entirely possible without being a lie. > [@](#): > > Are you going to address the question asked of you in response or not? I’ve answered all questions asked of me in this thread. Did I miss one? If so point it out. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/199 "2013-12-17T20:06:54Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > They would have to have an actual organization to make that decision, no? They didn’t. No, they don’t. The default is, of course, not to form a 527 group and hit the campaign trail. The default is to mow the lawn, drink a beer, or watch the Packers game. Until one vet had the idea and got the ball rolling, you’ve just got a bunch of vets living their lives, with their own reasons for not speaking out about Kerry: inertia, sloth, lack of concern for the proud people of Massachusetts, belief that other vets wouldn’t join in, or whatever. According to NYT, it was [Hoffman that got the ball rolling:](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/20/politics/campaign/20swift.html?ex=1250740800&en=7bf4b2f25a4c8daf&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland) > [@](#): > > It all began last winter, as Mr. Kerry was wrapping up the Democratic nomination. Mr. Lonsdale received a call at his Massachusetts home from his old commander in Vietnam, Mr. Hoffmann, asking if he had seen the new biography of the man who would be president. > > Mr. Hoffmann had commanded the Swift boats during the war from a base in Cam Ranh Bay and advocated a search-and-destroy campaign against the Vietcong - the kind of tactic Mr. Kerry criticized when he was a spokesman for Vietnam Veterans Against the War in 1971. Shortly after leaving the Navy in 1978, he was issued a letter of censure for exercising undue influence on cases in the military justice system. > > Both Mr. Hoffmann and Mr. Lonsdale had publicly lauded Mr. Kerry in the past. But the book, Mr. Brinkley’s “Tour of Duty,” while it burnished Mr. Kerry’s reputation, portrayed the two men as reckless leaders whose military approach had led to the deaths of countless sailors and innocent civilians. Several Swift boat veterans compared Mr. Hoffmann to the bloodthirsty colonel in the film “Apocalypse Now” - the one who loves the smell of Napalm in the morning. > > The two men were determined to set the record, as they saw it, straight. > > “It was the admiral who started it and got the rest of us into it,” Mr. Lonsdale said. > > Mr. Hoffmann’s phone calls led them to Texas and to John E. O’Neill, who at one point commanded the same Swift boat in Vietnam, and whose mission against him dated to 1971, when he had been recruited by the Nixon administration to debate Mr. Kerry on “The Dick Cavett Show.” > > … > > Another partner, Tex Lezar, ran on the Republican ticket with Mr. Bush in 1994, as lieutenant governor. They were two years apart at Yale, and Mr. Lezar worked for the attorney general’s office in the Reagan administration. Mr. Lezar, who died last year, was married to Merrie Spaeth, a powerful public relations executive who has helped coordinate the efforts of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. > > … > > About 10 veterans met in Ms. Spaeth’s office in Dallas in April to share outrage and plot their campaign against Mr. Kerry, she and others said. Mr. Lonsdale, who did not attend, said the meeting had been planned as “an indoctrination session.” > > What might have been loose impressions about Mr. Kerry began to harden. > > “That was an awakening experience,” Ms. Spaeth said. “Not just for me, but for many of them who had not heard each other’s stories.” > > The group decided to hire a private investigator to investigate Mr. Brinkley’s account of the war - to find "some neutral way of actually questioning people involved in these incidents,‘’ Mr. O’Neill said There you go, perfectly plausible explanation: Brinkley’s biography gets Hoffman determined to “set the record straight”, and given the timing, there’s plenty of Republican money to finance the organization and plenty of press coverage for it…which wouldn’t be the case if Kerry was just a Senator, and not a Presidential candidate. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Sticking with that story, huh? Well, I guess you have to. Makes more sense than your theory, which is what, again? > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Pretty much every fucking time, yes. Ever hear complaints from candidates about their opponents’ out-of-state funding sources? Or about candidates doing fundraising outside their home states? What the fuck do you call that? Not the same thing, this isn’t just writing checks. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/200 "2013-12-17T20:13:22Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Not the same thing, this isn’t just writing checks. Lots of groups oppose (or support) candidates in other states. Many political groups are national, and do that for many, or just a few, candidates. And it doesn’t just involve spending money - not that it would matter anyway, since money is the most practical way to participate in a race that’s not in your own state or district. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411.md?page=11)