# "Republicans," what's your take on John Kerry and Swiftboating? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 15, 2013, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411 "2013-12-15T21:57:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/201 "2013-12-17T20:15:55Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Lots of groups oppose (or support) candidates in other states. Many political groups are national, and do that for many, or just a few, candidates. And it doesn’t just involve spending money - not that it would matter anyway, since money is the most practical way to participate in a race that’s not in your own state or district. Ok. Can you name such a group, created to oppose a single out-of-state Senator, based on the personal testimony of the group members? ---
**Author:** ![Dostoyevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5a626/32.png) [@Dostoyevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dostoyevsky)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/202 "2013-12-17T20:17:09Z")
Okay, I’m not taking sides, mostly because I don’t know enough to take a side, but I do have a couple of questions: **ElvisL1ves,** perhaps the reason why Kerry’s Senate campaign was off the “out-rage radar” (to use **Human Action’s** term) insofar as his fellow Vets were concerned is because they didn’t know he was running for the Senate in another state. Maybe? And if a national group of Pubs could’ve convinced them to lie about Kerry’s record, why couldn’t have a group of Pubs within Mass. convinced them to do the same way back when? Also, I’m not sure that all of your quotes respond to **Debaser’s** question about what did Lonsdale lie about. For instance, you cite: > [@](#): > > 6.2 Lacks the capacity to lead or not? > > Other > > [NOW] > Adrian Lonsdale, today: “He lacks the capacity to lead.” > > [THEN] > Adrian Lonsdale, 1996: “He was among the finest of those Swift boat drivers.” > > Adrian Lonsdale, 1996: “As far as I was concerned, the war was won over there in that part for that period. And it was mainly won because of the bravado and the courage of the young officers that ran the boats, the SWIFT boats and the Coast Guard cutters and Senator Kerry was no exception.” > > Adrian Lonsdale, years ago: “I don’t like what he said after the war…But he was a good naval officer.” None of the “then” and “now” statements strike me as mutually exclusive. Being a “good naval officer” isn’t the same as being fit to lead a nation is it? If leading a nation is what Lonsdale had in mind, and I don’t know if that’s what he meant or not, than it’s entirely possible for him to compliment Kerry’s leadership abilities within a military context and still cast doubt on his ability to lead within a political context without being a liar. Granted, he’d be speaking ambiguously, and he’d probably also be wrong (as my guess is good military leaders probably are also good political leaders in most cases), but being ambiguous and being wrong don’t equate to lying do they? Also regarding your examples of possible lies from Lonsdale, saying that Kerry had courage and was part of a winning war effort isn’t the same as saying that he was fit to lead a nation, is it? I’m not arguing that Lonsdale didn’t lie about Kerry. I’m just saying that the particular passage that I just quoted doesn’t strike me, at present, as examples of lying. But perhaps you can change my mind. **Really Not All That Bright,** I’ve enjoyed your exchange with **John Mace** on fairness in politics. You said: > [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > The same way I determine how anything else is fair. Have you got kids? Is it alright for one son to punch the other in the eye if the other one hit him last week? I think there’s a difference between what’s fair and what’s ethical. Fair, to me, just means an eye for an eye approach, or identical reciprocation if you prefer. But that still doesn’t mean an eye for an eye approach is ethical, fair as it is. So, if it’s the case that Dems were “just as bad” about spreading shit about Pubs (and I realize how controversial that “if” is), then yeah I’d say that this smear campaign was fair. But it would still be unethical, because it’s a smear campaign. That’s just my take on fairness, and to each their own. **To all** : sounds like Kerry got a raw deal and that this shouldn’t have been an issue. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/203 "2013-12-17T20:19:13Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I’m not sure what you’re talking about here. Got a cite for this claim? > **[The Great Swiftboat Flip-Flop - Democratic Underground](https://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x597572)** > > The Great Swiftboat Flip-Flop > **[สล็อตทรูวอเลท เล่นได้ไม่มีขั้นต่ำ ฝากถอนรวดเร็วทันใจ 30 วินาที](https://eriposte.com)** > > คาสิโนออนไลน์ สล็อตทรูวอเลท ให้คุณได้เล่นเกมสล็อตที่ชื่นชอบ เว็บตรง แตกบ่อย แตกหนักแบบจัดเต็ม หนึ่งในเกมเดิมพันออนไลน์ที่สามารถทำกำไรได้มากที่สุด > **[THE 2004 CAMPAIGN: ADVERTISING; Friendly Fire: The Birth of an Attack on...](https://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/20/us/the-2004-campaign-advertising-friendly-fire-the-birth-of-an-attack-on-kerry.html)** > > Sen John Kerry hits back at veterans' group that has mounted massive campaign to discredit his Vietnam service record; says their claim that he lied to win medals is categorically false, and claims members of group, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, are... ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/204 "2013-12-17T20:40:12Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Ok. Can you name such a group, created to oppose a single out-of-state Senator, based on the personal testimony of the group members? Why does it matter if they oppose just one senate candidate? I’m not sure why this is important. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/205 "2013-12-17T20:48:32Z")
I don’t find “lack of action when he was running for the Senate” to be particularly convincing about anything. I might find a bit surprising if Kerry was from one of the states listed by **Debaser** , above. But MA? Whether they were a “front group” or not doesn’t really matter to me. The only thing that matters is the truth of their message, and fact-checking showed them to be largely liars or, at best, truth-twisters. How they ended up sending out that message is of little importance compared tot he message itself. I don’t get bent out of shape just because some mean ol’ Republicans are funding something. I worry about the substance of that “something”. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/206 "2013-12-17T20:54:50Z")
ISTM that the “front group” argument is self-defeating, in that it’s arguing that it must be a front group from the fact that it was never active in Kerry’s senate campaigns, while simultaneously arguing that senate campaigns also attract outside groups trying to influence the results. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/207 "2013-12-17T20:56:14Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Why does it matter if they oppose just one senate candidate? I’m not sure why this is important. Because that’s what the SBVfT would have been had they formed prior to 2004. It’s been suggested that, since the group came into existence after Kerry had been a Senator for some time, this itself is evidence of their dishonesty/partisanship/lack of conviction/something. I submit that forming such a group around a Senator is much more difficult than forming one around a presidential candidate. There’s less interest from potential members who don’t live in that state, obviously; less national interest; less funding, unless the Senator is considered vulnerable, which Kerry wasn’t; less media attention; less of everything needed. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/208 "2013-12-17T20:56:53Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > [The Great Swiftboat Flip-Flop - Democratic Underground](http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x597572) > [http://swiftvets.eriposte.com/sbv\_v\_sbv.htm](http://swiftvets.eriposte.com/sbv_v_sbv.htm) > [http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/20/politics/campaign/20swift.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/20/politics/campaign/20swift.html) First of all, you are offering a post on the Democratic Underground as a cite? That’s just a message board, and one that doesn’t allow conservative posters at all that might challenge the liberal nature of the board. Your next cite is the one that’s already been posted several times to this thread. It’s been noted a couple times now that it doesn’t say what you seem to think it does. It reaches at finding flip flops but doesn’t really get there. Lastly, I’m not paying the NYTimes money, so I don’t know what that cite says. Why don’t you try being specific. Post something that one of the vets said that is inconsistent with something they earlier said. Or just give up and retract. That would certainly be easier. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/209 "2013-12-17T20:59:50Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Because that’s what the SBVfT would have been had they formed prior to 2004. It’s been suggested that, since the group came into existence after Kerry had been a Senator for some time, this itself is evidence of their dishonesty/partisanship/lack of conviction/something. I submit that forming such a group around a Senator is much more difficult than forming one around a presidential candidate. There’s less interest from potential members who don’t live in that state, obviously; less national interest; less funding, unless the Senator is considered vulnerable, which Kerry wasn’t; less media attention; less of everything needed. In addition, the book that ostensibly got them all riled up was likely either published or publicized as a result of the presidential candidacy. It doesn’t strike me as implausible that they read unflattering depictions of themselves and (honestly or otherwise) decide to strike back. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/210 "2013-12-17T21:03:13Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > ISTM that the “front group” argument is self-defeating, in that it’s arguing that it must be a front group from the fact that it was never active in Kerry’s senate campaigns, while simultaneously arguing that senate campaigns also attract outside groups trying to influence the results. **Budget Player Cadet** is the one who brought up this hijack. I would argue that it is: 1. Incorrect. It’s just not true, and he and **Elvis** can’t back it up. 2. A hijack. As **John Mace** points out it really doesn’t matter who they are. It’s the merit of their claims that’s important. In any case, the fact that there weren’t groups with outside funding attacking Kerry while he was a Senator as there was when he was a Presidential candidate is hardly noteworthy. It’s certainly not an indicator of any kinds of conspiracy or whatever it is that **Budget Player Cadet** and **Elvis** are trying to imply. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/211 "2013-12-17T21:04:31Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > In addition, the book that ostensibly got them all riled up was likely either published or publicized as a result of the presidential candidacy. It doesn’t strike me as implausible that they read unflattering depictions of themselves and (honestly or otherwise) decide to strike back. Agreed. Those hoofbeats we are hearing are horses, not invisible pink unicorns. It’s a silly hijack. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/212 "2013-12-17T21:09:32Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > In any case, the fact that there weren’t groups with outside funding attacking Kerry while he was a Senator as there was when he was a Presidential candidate is hardly noteworthy. It’s certainly not an indicator of any kinds of conspiracy or whatever it is that **Budget Player Cadet** and **Elvis** are trying to imply. I think they’re trying to imply that those mean ol’ Republicans kick-started a group that might have gotten going on its own. To which I say: BFD. It’s the message that matters, not the guy who bought the paper that the message was written on. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/213 "2013-12-17T21:25:36Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Why don’t you try being specific. Post something that one of the vets said that is inconsistent with something they earlier said. Or just give up and retract. That would certainly be easier. You know, if you’re not going to click my links (the _very first one_ is an example of exactly what you’re asking for, with citation), then I’m not going to bother. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/214 "2013-12-17T22:13:50Z")
Getting past all the personal bullshit in the thread so far, I get the sense people think the Swiftboating against Kerry in 2004 was somehow a response to his “Ready for duty” shtick. You’d get that impression, anyway. To ensure the record is straight, that is not the case. Swiftboating attacks began months BEFORE the DNC and Kerry’s “Ready for duty” line. They kicked it off with a press conference on May 4; the convention was in late July. The book “Unfit for Command” was released in August, so it was obviously in the works long before the convention. To a large extent that line was a response to Swiftboating, not the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![Dostoyevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5a626/32.png) [@Dostoyevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dostoyevsky)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/215 "2013-12-17T22:33:21Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Getting past all the personal bullshit in the thread so far, I get the sense people think the Swiftboating against Kerry in 2004 was somehow a response to his “Ready for duty” shtick. You’d get that impression, anyway. > > To ensure the record is straight, that is not the case. Swiftboating attacks began months BEFORE the DNC and Kerry’s “Ready for duty” line. They kicked it off with a press conference on May 4; the convention was in late July. The book “Unfit for Command” was released in August, so it was obviously in the works long before the convention. To a large extent that line was a response to Swiftboating, not the other way around. That’s helpful to know. I, too, thought that Kerry’s comments about his military service preceded the Swiftboating against him. Btw, I just searched for “Unfit for Command” at Amazon, and I discovered that it has an unusually high number of negative reviews, even for a political book. The negative review that really speaks truth to power is from a copied-and-pasted article from the Wall Street Journal that was written by a guy who’s both a Republican and a veteran who served alongside Kerry. The first line reads, “John Kerry saved my life.” The guy goes on to say that even though he’s a Republican he’s still pissed about this character assassination. Here’s an excerpt: > [@](#): > > Nobody asked me to join John’s campaign. Why would they? I am a Republican, and for more than 30 years I have largely voted for Republicans. I volunteered for his campaign because I have seen John Kerry in the worst of conditions. I know his character. I’ve witnessed his bravery and leadership under fire. And I truly know he will be a great commander in chief. And… > [@](#): > > As John McCain noted, the television ad aired by these veterans is “dishonest and dishonorable.” Sen. McCain called on President Bush to condemn the Swift Boat Veterans for Bush ad. Regrettably, the president has ignored Sen. McCain’s advice. Thanks, **RickJay** for mentioning this book. Its reviews at Amazon summed up this scandal nicely for me. Looks like establishment Republicans were horrified at what was happening to Kerry, and the fringe was mobilized because of it. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/216 "2013-12-17T22:47:52Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > You and I seem to be the only participants in this thread interested in whether the Swiftboat campaign affected the election. ☹ I think it did; that’s why the affair seems so sad to me, and makes such a mockery of American politics. > > Your analysis is flawed in several ways, **watchwolf49**. Just for starters, unless you think the reactions to Swiftboat would vary greatly state-by-state, it’s simplest and best to focus on popular vote, not electoral. Also, you seem to assume that the only reason 2000 Demo voters would switch to GOP for 2004, or vice versa, was Swiftboat. Instead, Iraq blunders, unemployment, Nader not running (all three issues favoring Kerry) were more important. I’m already on record here stating that it didn’t change my vote … Louis Farrakhan was still the best man for the job. Kerry received about the same popular vote as Gore … though I can’t imagine the Nader block swinging to George LXIII. So let’s call that 2.5% in Kerry’s block, meaning 2.5% Gore voters voted for Georgie. Yes, assuming the Swiftboat affair was the only reason, we’re still not talking about a major shift. If there were other reasons, then the Swiftboat affair had even less to do with the election outcome. Look at what people are posting here, and think “they vote too” … I’m ready to bend my knee to Queen Elizabeth II, letting the common classes vote is a big mistake. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/217 "2013-12-17T23:37:09Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > It’s entirely possible that he is simply telling the truth. He feels Kerry did serve honorably and led his men well. Yet due to his actions after the war he feels Kerry isn’t fit for command of the military. That’s entirely possible without being a lie. Those things are completely inconsistent with each other. Flail away. > [@Human\_Action](#): > > According to NYT, it was [Hoffman that got the ball rolling:](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/20/politics/campaign/20swift.html?ex=1250740800&en=7bf4b2f25a4c8daf&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland) Your own damn cite says Corsi’s book was what “inspired” Hoffman. IOW, where it started was not where you say it started, as you have shown us all. > [@](#): > > which wouldn’t be the case if Kerry was just a Senator, and not a Presidential candidate. Sticking with that to the bitter end, I see. > [@](#): > > Makes more sense than your theory, which is what, again? Scroll up. > [@](#): > > Not the same thing, this isn’t just writing checks. Keep flailing. > [@Dostoevsky](#): > > perhaps the reason why Kerry’s Senate campaign was off the “out-rage radar” (to use Human Action’s term) insofar as his fellow Vets were concerned is because they didn’t know he was running for the Senate in another state. Maybe? Really? :dubious: I mean, really? Kerry was one of the most prominent members of the Senate, and had been for many years. Maybe you weren’t old enough to know that. > [@](#): > > And if a national group of Pubs could’ve convinced them to lie about Kerry’s record, why couldn’t have a group of Pubs within Mass. convinced them to do the same way back when? They could have tried, sure. But it wouldn’t have helped their goal of defeating a Democrat, no matter his demonstrated courage and record and decorations. Only when that became possible did they find the sense of “honor” that let them lie about and denounce a better man than they could ever dream of being, never mind that many of them were previously on record as having said the opposite. Now, you tell us: Why, if they were telling the truth or even mostly the truth, did they not come out for Kerry’s election as LG or his first one as Senator, when Vietnam memories were fresh and VVAW resentments were still raw? Got any ideas what took 'em so long? ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/218 "2013-12-18T00:05:39Z")
(No return of Republican investment in Massachusetts?) ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/219 "2013-12-18T00:19:01Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Your own damn cite says Corsi’s book was what “inspired” Hoffman. IOW, where it started was not where you say it started, as you have shown us all. Er…where? The “inspiration” was the Brinkley book. I’ll quote the relevant section again: > [@](#): > > It all began last winter, as Mr. Kerry was wrapping up the Democratic nomination. Mr. Lonsdale received a call at his Massachusetts home from his old commander in Vietnam, Mr. Hoffmann, asking if he had seen the new biography of the man who would be president. > > Mr. Hoffmann had commanded the Swift boats during the war from a base in Cam Ranh Bay and advocated a search-and-destroy campaign against the Vietcong – the kind of tactic Mr. Kerry criticized when he was a spokesman for Vietnam Veterans Against the War in 1971. Shortly after leaving the Navy in 1978, he was issued a letter of censure for exercising undue influence on cases in the military justice system. > > Both Mr. Hoffmann and Mr. Lonsdale had publicly lauded Mr. Kerry in the past. But the book, Mr. Brinkley’s ‘‘Tour of Duty,’’ while it burnished Mr. Kerry’s reputation, portrayed the two men as reckless leaders whose military approach had led to the deaths of countless sailors and innocent civilians. Several Swift boat veterans compared Mr. Hoffmann to the bloodthirsty colonel in the film ‘‘Apocalypse Now’’ – the one who loves the smell of Napalm in the morning. > > The two men were determined to set the record, as they saw it, straight. Corsi and “Unfit For Command” are mentioned exactly twice: > [@](#): > > The book outlining the veterans’ charges, ‘‘Unfit for Command: Swift Boat Veterans Speak Out Against Kerry,’’ has also come under fire. It is published by Regnery, a conservative company that has published numerous books critical of Democrats, and written by Mr. O’Neill and Jerome R. Corsi, who was identified on the book jacket as a Harvard Ph.D. and the author of many books and articles. But Mr. Corsi also acknowledged that he has been a contributor of anti-Catholic, anti-Muslim and anti-Semitic comments to a right-wing Web site. He said he regretted those comments. > [@](#): > > A damage report to Mr. Thurlow’s boat shows that it received three bullet holes, suggesting enemy fire, and later intelligence reports indicate that one Vietcong was killed in action and five others wounded, reaffirming the presence of an enemy. Mr. Thurlow said the boat was hit the day before. He also received a Bronze Star for the day, a fact left out of ‘‘Unfit for Command.’’ …so I have no idea what you’re talking about. It’d be a neat trick if Corsi’s book could have inspired Hoffman, when the meetings he organized about Kerry were in April, and the Corsi book came out in August. [QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] Sticking with that to the bitter end, I see. [/quote] What can I say? I’ve never been easily persuaded by “nu uh!” [QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] Scroll up. [/quote] Very helpful. You mean this? > [@](#): > > Odd, then, isn’t it, that the group _didn’t actually exist_ during all of Kerry’s long service in the Senate or in any of his campaigns for it (not to mention his term as Lt. Gov. before that), until he declared for President. Then it somehow spontaneously arose and was rapidly organized and funded. What a remarkable coincidence that was! > > Come on now. Because that’s innuendo, not argument. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Keep flailing. If you can actually name a comparable organization, please do so. There might well be some. A smug dismissal isn’t an argument. ---
**Author:** ![Dostoyevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5a626/32.png) [@Dostoyevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dostoyevsky)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/220 "2013-12-18T01:08:32Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Kerry was one of the most prominent members of the Senate, and had been for many years. Maybe you weren’t old enough to know that. Point taken. > [@](#): > > Now, you tell us: Why, if they were telling the truth or even mostly the truth, did they not come out for Kerry’s election as LG or his first one as Senator, when Vietnam memories were fresh and VVAW resentments were still raw? Got any ideas what took 'em so long? Actually, no. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411.md?page=12)