# "Republicans," what's your take on John Kerry and Swiftboating? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 15, 2013, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411 "2013-12-15T21:57:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/301 "2013-12-19T17:21:43Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Wrong. He would still have been a Democrat running against a Republican incumbent in an election in which the war the incumbent started, and getting out of it, was the central issue. His service and courage would have been smeared, just as you have done right now, no matter what he said or did. I was about to say the same thing. He would have been attacked even if he never mentioned medals or military service or any of that. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/302 "2013-12-19T17:28:13Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Emphasis added. When did he do that? I dont recall anything specific. It was part of his broader effort to emphasize his war hero status, and conversely the attempt to claim that some of these were weakly deserved were part of a broader effort to undermine this status. (My only point here was that even if there was general inflation of medal awards at the time, that does not make the issue go away.) I looked around a bit, but it’s hard to come up with cites about Kerry’s claims about his medals. Put “Kerry” and “medals” into a search engine and you get a bunch of stuff about this conteroversy, and more about another controversy involving whether Kerry had tossed away his medals as a war protest. If my impression is incorrect in this regard, and the Kerry campaign did not in fact play up his war medals, then I retract that comment, of course. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/303 "2013-12-19T17:31:19Z")
It’s always difficult to speculate what would have happened if someone didn’t do “X”, but I’m not ready to assume that the Swifties wouldn’t have come out of the woodwork had Kerry been largely silent about his military service. But I certainly don’t remember Kerry making a big deal about his PHs. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/304 "2013-12-19T17:32:35Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Emphasis added. When did he do that? Does the Brinkley biography, _Tour of Duty: John Kerry and the Vietnam War_ count? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/305 "2013-12-19T17:36:36Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Does the Brinkley biography, _Tour of Duty: John Kerry and the Vietnam War_ count? I don’t know. If you think it does, then tell us why. ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/306 "2013-12-19T17:37:15Z")
I do think there is a place to mention Rove in this context, and his well-documented strategy of attempting to turn a political opponent’s perceived strengths into weaknesses. If you can create a lot of discussion about Kerry’s war record, it deflects from the objectively weaker war record of Bush’s. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/307 "2013-12-19T17:45:56Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t know. If you think it does, then tell us why. On balance, yes. The book, while not written by Kerry, was commissioned by him, and clearly [timed to coincide with a presidential run:](http://hnn.us/article/3436) > [@](#): > > In his acknowledgments, at the book’s close, Brinkley stresses again his editorial independence.“Kerry wished that the story of what the Swift boats did in Vietnam was better known,” Brinkley writes," and toward that end granted me permission to quote from what he collectively called his ‘War Notes’ with only one string attached: that I write any book or article drawn from them within two years." This time the italics are mine. If Kerry’s true purpose was to spread the word about the history of Swift boats in Vietnam, correcting an oversight in the historical record, you can’t help but wonder why he required the author to finish the book in two years. As it happens, Brinkley began his work in 2002, which meant that it would have to be finished by . . . oh. And sure enough, the book arrived in bookstores two weeks before the Iowa caucuses. You don’t suppose the senator had some other purpose in mind? And, the book does include accounts of Kerry’s heroism: > [@](#): > > He was in total control, and willing to be aggressive," says one of his crewmen.“He wanted to take the fight to the enemy. . . . He always put his men’s welfare first, and he was tough, tough, tough. He was a great leader.” > > … > > “I was shocked when Kerry beached the boat,” another crewman tells Brinkley.“He saved the day and our lives.” The details behind the awarding of each medal are recounted in the book. Given all that, it’s, to my mind, fair to say that “tried to present [his] medals as evidence of his great heroism”, with the caveats that it was in a biography about him and not his own speeches, and that the heroism was genuine. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/308 "2013-12-19T17:56:03Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s always difficult to speculate what would have happened if someone didn’t do “X”, but I’m not ready to assume that the Swifties wouldn’t have come out of the woodwork had Kerry been largely silent about his military service. As you say, it’s hard to say. A lot depends on what you assume about the actors going in. If you assume that the Evil Rovian Republicans are out to get all the Fine and Honorable Democrats at every opportunity, then you would assume it makes no difference, as indicated by a couple of recent posters. Myself, I think a lot of the vets who served with him were enraged by the anti-war activist playing up his war hero credentials when it turned convenient and were provoked into a more active role than they might have otherwise taken. In addition, it also resonated more with the public for this reason. YMMV. > [@](#): > > But I certainly don’t remember Kerry making a big deal about his PHs. Hard to tell what constitutes a “big deal” and to assess now whether he made “big deal” back then. FWIW, here’s the [John Kerry for President website](http://web.archive.org/web/20041102023331/http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_kerry/) > [@](#): > > John Kerry is running for president to answer the call to service - just as he has answered that call all his life. He was born on December 11, 1943 at Fitzsimons Army Hospital in Colorado. His father, Richard, volunteered in the Army Air Corps during World War II. His mother, Rosemary, was a lifelong community activist. > > As he was about to graduate from Yale, John Kerry volunteered to serve in Vietnam. His leadership, courage, and sacrifice earned him a Silver Star, a Bronze Star with Combat V, and three Purple Hearts. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/309 "2013-12-19T18:05:12Z")
It’s stating a matter of fact. I think he has every right to, and it makes complete sense to include that his resume. I don’t see that as bragging. Had he walked around wearing his Purple Heart medals, then, that would be bragging. If he mentioned it multiple times on the stump, then yes. How could he leave it out of his book? And why should he leave it off his resume? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/310 "2013-12-19T18:06:52Z")
As above, it’s a subjective matter. I disagree with you, but have nothing further to add. ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/311 "2013-12-19T18:11:11Z")
“As you say, it’s hard to say. A lot depends on what you assume about the actors going in. If you assume that the Evil Rovian Republicans are out to get all the Fine and Honorable Democrats at every opportunity, then you would assume it makes no difference, as indicated by a couple of recent posters.” Based upon the politics of the past 10-20 yrs or so, do you think there is a rational basis for the “at every opportunity” interpretation, or do think there is insufficient evidence for support of this interpretation? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/312 "2013-12-19T18:13:09Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > As above, it’s a subjective matter. I disagree with you, but have nothing further to add. Would you say he was bragging about having graduated from Yale? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/313 "2013-12-19T18:31:33Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Would you say he was bragging about having graduated from Yale? “Bragging” is your word, not mine. If the question is: “do you think he would have specified Podunk Community College” if that had been the college that he happened to graduate from?", my answer would be no, he probably would have just said “… graduate from college”. But he clearly put alot more emphasis in that bio on his military connections - which occupy two of the six paragraphs - than on his college career. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/314 "2013-12-19T18:39:48Z")
God forbid politicians running for office talk about what’s good about themselves. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/315 "2013-12-19T18:47:16Z")
By interesting comparison, I’m wondering how many Americans are totally unaware that Al Gore did a tour in Viet Nam? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/316 "2013-12-19T20:56:28Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > By interesting comparison, I’m wondering how many Americans are totally unaware that Al Gore did a tour in Viet Nam? I don’t think that’s terribly relevant since he, unlike Kerry, wasn’t a combat veteran, unless you’re trying to make a point that he served a full tour whereas Kerry didn’t serve a full tour but merely three-and-a-half months(due to the unwritten “three heart rule” which pulled people out if the recieved three Purple Hearts in a tour.) Incidentally when I say Gore wasn’t a combat veteran that’s not meant as an insult or to suggest there was anything wrong with his service. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/317 "2013-12-19T21:23:02Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > “Bragging” is your word, not mine. Your words were: > [@](#): > > he tried to present these medals as evidence of his great heroism If that’s different than “bragging” the difference escapes me. > [@](#): > > If the question is: “do you think he would have specified Podunk Community College” if that had been the college that he happened to graduate from?", my answer would be no, he probably would have just said “… graduate from college”. Are you serious? Do you have any evidence that a candidate ever did that in his bio? > [@](#): > > But he clearly put alot more emphasis in that bio on his military connections - which occupy two of the six paragraphs - than on his college career. Most of that is what he did after the wars, btw. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/318 "2013-12-19T21:32:10Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Your words were: > > > [@](#): > > > > he tried to present these medals as evidence of his great heroism > > If that’s different than “bragging” the difference escapes me. Well it’s always hard to know what nuances someone else might be trying to introduce when they switch the terms on you. But if we just stick to my words, then I’m on solid ground. If there is a difference between “present these medals as evidence of his great heroism” and “His leadership, courage, and sacrifice earned him a Silver Star, a Bronze Star with Combat V, and three Purple Hearts”, that difference escapes me. > [@](#): > > Are you serious? Do you have any evidence that a candidate ever did that in his bio? No clue. And no interest in finding out. This is your point, not mine. I was just answering your question. You want to say he wasn’t trying to point out that he graduated from a prestigious college, that’s fine with me. I do stand by what I myself said, as above. > [@](#): > > Most of that is what he did after the wars, btw. No it’s not, btw. ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/319 "2013-12-19T23:40:32Z")
> [@Truman\_Burbank](#): > > “As you say, it’s hard to say. A lot depends on what you assume about the actors going in. If you assume that the Evil Rovian Republicans are out to get all the Fine and Honorable Democrats at every opportunity, then you would assume it makes no difference, as indicated by a couple of recent posters.” > > Based upon the politics of the past 10-20 yrs or so, do you think there is a rational basis for the “at every opportunity” interpretation, or do think there is insufficient evidence for support of this interpretation? I’d really be interested… ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/320 "2013-12-20T00:40:44Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > By interesting comparison, I’m wondering how many Americans are totally unaware that Al Gore did a tour in Viet Nam? By some accounts, Gore was so stoned he wasn’t all that aware of it _himself_. 😉 There were, btw, accusations from the Bush loyalists that Gore had found the best way of all to dodge the draft - to join the Army and go to Vietnam! All he had to do was pull strings to get a non-combat assignment, and he’d come out of the experience alive and healthy, and with service on his record, too. So, to answer the follow-on question, no, there is no record of military service anyone can have that cannot be twisted into a negative. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411.md?page=17)