# "Republicans," what's your take on John Kerry and Swiftboating? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 15, 2013, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411 "2013-12-15T21:57:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/321 "2013-12-20T00:53:04Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > :rolleyes: It’s of no interest to me in a political campaign. And yet a political campaign is the only context in which it matters, or even _exists_. So then … > [@](#): > > I don’t see anything in the OP about “the total of all the people influenced by smear campaigns”. That’s what you want the thread to be about. It’s called “paraphrasing”. It’s a very useful tool. > [@](#): > > Don’t pretend that we all have to be interested in whatever you happen to be interested in. So there will be no more of your hijacks here? Good. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2013, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/322 "2013-12-21T13:18:33Z")
My own view on the Swift Boating was: 1. Kerry made his military service a central part of his appeal. Thus it was fair to place it under scrutiny. 2. Although much of what the Swifties said was BS, their initial claim, that very few of his fellow officers supported his candidacy, was significant and worth letting voters know about. As was their attacks on what Kerry did after coming back from Vietnam. If they’d not let their hatred for him get the better of them and stuck to the provable facts, they might have convinced more people. 3. The media sided 100% with Kerry. It is very unlikely that many minds were changed by the Swifties. There was just too much that was untrue and that destroyed their credibility, leaving only those already hating Kerry as the choir they were preaching to. 4. I actually voted for Kerry. I felt that GWB was destroying conservatism by being a crappy President. So even though I listened to the Swifties and took SOME of what they said seriously, it didn’t make Bush a better President. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2013, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/323 "2013-12-21T13:40:22Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > 1. The media sided 100% with Kerry. Yeah, I’m just gonna let this one stand. This is right up there with “The results in Iraq vindicated GWB” or “Hurricane Katrina was handled well”. > [@](#): > > 1. Although much of what the Swifties said was BS, their initial claim, that very few of his fellow officers supported his candidacy, was significant and worth letting voters know about. As was their attacks on what Kerry did after coming back from Vietnam. If they’d not let their hatred for him get the better of them and stuck to the provable facts, they might have convinced more people. And those facts are not what people focused on. Rather, it was the claims about his time in service, and his silver star. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2013, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/324 "2013-12-21T14:43:44Z")
At the very least, Kerry gamed the system with his race to “3 Purple Hearts and I’m Outta Here” scheme. His idol was the original JFK from his own state. He saw what Kennedy’s service record did for him and figured he’d get him some Purple Hearts, too. Two of which, if I recall correctly, stunk. One for basically a scratch, the other for another very minor injury resulting from debris from his/their own fire, which, according to the rules, does not qualify one for a Purple Heart because it didn’t result from anomy fire. Then he told lies about fellow servicemen to congress as he pomped himself up, publicly threw his medals away while speaking at the Washington Mall (guess if you never really earned them…), then laughably stood on a stage at the beginning of his Presidential run, saluted and said “Reporting for duty”, as if he was a George Washington succumbing to the will of the people in their time of need. He is a loathsome. Go read Unfit for Service. Or not. ::shrug:: And son’t get me started on the whole Iran thing. He’s so desperate to put a little feather in his cap he brokered a deal that is plutonium-grade stupid. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2013, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/325 "2013-12-21T15:45:50Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > And those facts are not what people focused on. Rather, it was the claims about his time in service, and his silver star. That’s how the media helped him out. They relentlessly fact checked those issues, focused on them, and since those were the allegations the Swifties had the least(or no) factual support for, it helped to discredit them without the media seeming to rush to Kerry’s aid. In the end, Kerry was just beaten in much the same way Romney was. “Flip flopper”, “Not one of us”, turn out the base. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2013, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/326 "2013-12-21T15:51:02Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > At the very least, Kerry gamed the system with his race to “3 Purple Hearts and I’m Outta Here” scheme. His idol was the original JFK from his own state. He saw what Kennedy’s service record did for him and figured he’d get him some Purple Hearts, too. Two of which, if I recall correctly, stunk. One for basically a scratch, the other for another very minor injury resulting from debris from his/their own fire, which, according to the rules, does not qualify one for a Purple Heart because it didn’t result from anomy fire. > [@](#): > > Go read Unfit for Service. Or not. ::shrug:: [This is](http://swiftvets.eriposte.com/kerrypurpleheart1.htm) [why not](http://swiftvets.eriposte.com/kerrypurpleheart3.htm). Because it has been established for almost a decade that “Unfit for Service” is largely made up of lies. That it is and was a dishonest smear campaign against Kerry with approximately zero basis in actual reality, from people who weren’t there and whose testimony is highly suspect. > [@](#): > > He is a loathsome. Nah. The people who lie about him are loathsome. And the people who repeat those lies a decade later without even a basic modicum of fact-checking are loathsome. He’s pretty okay for a politician. You won’t even tell us what lies he supposedly told to congress, which I find quite telling. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2013, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/327 "2013-12-21T15:52:06Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > That’s how the media helped him out. :smack: Not going to bother. This statement cost me too many brain cells. Anyone else wanna take a whack? Okay **adaher** , here’s a hint. If a random party alleged that a presidential candidate was a pedophile, and the media spoke about nothing else, _even if it was largely to debunk it_, you really think that’s helping the candidate? _Really?_ ---
**Author:** ![Pashnish\_Ewing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8797f3/32.png) [@Pashnish\_Ewing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pashnish_Ewing)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/328 "2013-12-21T16:44:20Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > If a random party alleged that a presidential candidate was a pedophile, and the media spoke about nothing else, _even if it was largely to debunk it_, you really think that’s helping the candidate? _Really?_ Not to mention giving equal time to those on the pro-pedophile side, despite the debunking. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2013, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/329 "2013-12-21T17:37:15Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Go read Unfit for Service. Or not. ::shrug:: I say not, because that was not the name of the book. 🙂 Perhaps you are referring to “Unfit for Command” by Corsi, Corsi is pushing Birtherism nowadays and he was/is too biased to be reliable: [http://mediamatters.org/research/2004/08/06/mmfa-investigates-who-is-jerome-corsi-co-author/131607](http://mediamatters.org/research/2004/08/06/mmfa-investigates-who-is-jerome-corsi-co-author/131607) > **[The Birther-Book SatireEveryone's Yelling About](https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/news/a9967/jerome-corsi-birther-book-5765410/)** > > Jerome Corsi's Where's the Birth Certificate book is pulled off shelves in our dreams, at least. So, this is example 20,300 of many on the right not being able to identify who is a reliable source. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/330 "2013-12-21T17:48:34Z")
I’m not seeing how the media “helps” a candidate by fact-checking his opponents. That’s their job, and they do it for everyone. It’s not like they did some special favor for Kerry. And most people aren’t news junkies like a lot of us, so the general take-away is that there is “some controversy”, and it cast a shadow over the campaign. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2013, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/331 "2013-12-21T17:52:35Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It is very unlikely that many minds were changed by the Swifties. There was just too much that was untrue and that destroyed their credibility, leaving only those already hating Kerry as the choir they were preaching to. You ignore that a large portion of voters pay MUCH less attention to politics than the people you discuss politics with. They catch a few ads on TV and not much else. As I mentioned earlier, in voter interviews a very large portion voted against Kerry because they “had doubts about his military record.” It wasn’t necessary that they believe the charges – in fact they may not have focused enough to really form an opinion – _it was enough that doubts were raised._ My opinion is that the the Swiftboat campaign probably swung the election. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2013, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/332 "2013-12-21T20:51:55Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m not seeing how the media “helps” a candidate by fact-checking his opponents. That’s their job, and they do it for everyone. It would be good if it worked that way, but the 2004 Presidential election was an example of how it doesn’t always. Contrast the attitude of CBS and its fact-checking vis-à-vis Swiftboating Kerry vs. how they treated the National Guard forgeries, in which they lied and said the documents had been authenticated when they [weren’t](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A18982-2004Sep13?language=printer). Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2013, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/333 "2013-12-21T20:55:30Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It would be good if it worked that way, but the 2004 Presidential election was an example of how it doesn’t always. Contrast the attitude of CBS and its fact-checking vis-à-vis Swiftboating Kerry vs. how they treated the National Guard forgeries, in which they lied and said the documents had been authenticated when they [weren’t](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A18982-2004Sep13?language=printer). > > Regards, > Shodan And the rest of the media was all over that. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2013, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/334 "2013-12-21T22:44:15Z")
Actually that was the same election where Mark Halperin sent out a memo telling his reporters at ABC not to use the same fact-check standards with Bush as with Kerry. So the rest of the media were not “all over” fact-checking evenly for both sides. Unless you have a cite of the rest of the media doing fact-checking on the National Guard forgeries as compared to the Swiftboat stuff. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2013, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/335 "2013-12-21T23:30:01Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Actually that was the same election where Mark Halperin sent out a memo telling his reporters at ABC not to use the same fact-check standards with Bush as with Kerry. > > So the rest of the media were not “all over” fact-checking evenly for both sides. Unless you have a cite of the rest of the media doing fact-checking on the National Guard forgeries as compared to the Swiftboat stuff. > > Regards, > Shodan Shodan, that story was basically exposed as a fraud if not right away, virtually right away. IIRC, within 24 hours it was exposed as clearly false. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/336 "2013-12-27T14:07:10Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Shodan, that story was basically exposed as a fraud if not right away, virtually right away. IIRC, within 24 hours it was exposed as clearly false. You don’t recall correctly. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Karrius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71c47a/32.png) [@Karrius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karrius)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/337 "2013-12-27T14:13:24Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Actually that was the same election where Mark Halperin sent out a memo telling his reporters at ABC not to use the same fact-check standards with Bush as with Kerry. > > So the rest of the media were not “all over” fact-checking evenly for both sides. Unless you have a cite of the rest of the media doing fact-checking on the National Guard forgeries as compared to the Swiftboat stuff. > > Regards, > Shodan Can I get a cite on this? Google is turning up nothing. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/338 "2013-12-27T15:10:52Z")
As I recall, the Halperin memo wasn’t an instruction to fact check differently, so much as to not treat both sides as equally dishonest. A lot of media tends to be “balanced” in that they act as stenographers for both sides, even if one side is lying their ass off while the other side is playing it straight. That being said, I don’t think the 2004 campaign involved much in the way of the candidates lying about each other. Most of the dishonesty was coming from third parties. I think the distortions flew much faster between the actual candidates in the last election. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/339 "2013-12-27T15:31:16Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m not seeing how the media “helps” a candidate by fact-checking his opponents. Of course not. Especially in cases like this where just having this crap in the public eye, regardless of whether it was being debunked or not, hurt Kerry’s image. > [@Shodan](#): > > It would be good if it worked that way, but the 2004 Presidential election was an example of how it doesn’t always. Contrast the attitude of CBS and its fact-checking vis-à-vis Swiftboating Kerry vs. how they treated the National Guard forgeries, in which they lied and said the documents had been authenticated when they [weren’t](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A18982-2004Sep13?language=printer). > > Regards, > Shodan What, you mean the incident where it came out almost immediately that this was a fraud and _Dan Fucking Rather_ was fired as a result? Also, your link is broken. Either way, that’s a _terrible_ example. Sure, it was just as bogus as the swiftboat claims. But somehow, when democratic claims are false, they are quickly ousted and then discarded; when republican claims are false, they keep on trekking for as long as humanly possible. As for Halperin, here’s the full memo. > [@](#): > > Halperin Memo Dated Friday October 8, 2004 > > It goes without saying that the stakes are getting very high for the country and the campaigns - and our responsibilities become quite grave > > I do not want to set off (sp?) and endless colloquy that none of us have time for today - nor do I want to stifle one. Please respond if you feel you can advance the discussion. > > The New York Times (Nagourney/Stevenson) and Howard Fineman on the web both make the same point today: the current Bush attacks on Kerry involve distortions and taking things out of context in a way that goes beyond what Kerry has done. > > Kerry distorts, takes out of context, and mistakes all the time, but these are not central to his efforts to win. > > We have a responsibility to hold both sides accountable to the public interest, _ **but that doesn’t mean we reflexively and artificially hold both sides “equally” accountable when the facts don’t warrant that** _. > > I’m sure many of you have this week felt the stepped up Bush efforts to complain about our coverage. This is all part of their efforts to get away with as much as possible with the stepped up, renewed efforts to win the election by destroying Senator Kerry at least partly through distortions. > > It’s up to Kerry to defend himself, of course. But as one of the few news organizations with the skill and strength to help voters evaluate what the candidates are saying to serve the public interest. Now is the time for all of us to step up and do that right. How the _hell_ do you come up with “Mark Halperin sent out a memo telling his reporters at ABC not to use the same fact-check standards with Bush as with Kerry”? That’s nonsense! He’s saying exactly the opposite - to use the same standard _without inserting false balance in an attempt to seem unpartisan_! Which is something more news organizations need to do. Look, the fact is that regardless of what the right-wing persecution complex clique would say, the media lets republicans get away with a lot. Why? _In an attempt to not look biased_. Lies were essentially the entire basis of the right wing’s 2004 smear campaign against Kerry. And if the media actually was balanced, you would have seen far _more_ slant to the left than you already see. You would not have seen anywhere near the same focus on the SBVTs. In reality, republicans all to often get treated with kid gloves by the mainstream media and democrats don’t, in the pointless and destructive mission of appearing “unbiased”. Halperin’s complaints were totally accurate, appropriate, and we need more of that today. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2013, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/340 "2013-12-27T16:43:18Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > How the _hell_ do you come up with “Mark Halperin sent out a memo telling his reporters at ABC not to use the same fact-check standards with Bush as with Kerry”? That’s nonsense! He’s saying exactly the opposite - to use the same standard _without inserting false balance in an attempt to seem unpartisan_! Which is something more news organizations need to do. > > Look, the fact is that regardless of what the right-wing persecution complex clique would say, the media lets republicans get away with a lot. Why? _In an attempt to not look biased_. Lies were essentially the entire basis of the right wing’s 2004 smear campaign against Kerry. And if the media actually was balanced, you would have seen far _more_ slant to the left than you already see. You would not have seen anywhere near the same focus on the SBVTs. In reality, republicans all to often get treated with kid gloves by the mainstream media and democrats don’t, in the pointless and destructive mission of appearing “unbiased”. Halperin’s complaints were totally accurate, appropriate, and we need more of that today. Your bias is blinding you. Do you really need it to say, “Pssst. As far as Bush goes, question everything, even after there are answers. Don’t give him the benefit of the doubt on anything. As far as Kerry, well, do the opposite. We have a country to save!” :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411.md?page=18)