# "Republicans," what's your take on John Kerry and Swiftboating? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 15, 2013, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411 "2013-12-15T21:57:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/21 "2013-12-16T07:01:17Z")
He was never vindicated for anything. He made statements to Congress about things he himself did not experience and he generally shit on the military. He couldn’t vindicate his behavior to those in the service who strongly objected to it. It was always that simple. He made the situation exponentially worse by wrapping himself in his military past. He did this to himself. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/22 "2013-12-16T07:17:09Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Gardening, you’ll thank me later. > > Dems were painting George XLIII as a draft dodger, I don’t blame the Reps for painting John F Kennedy as a chicken assed PT boat captain. Well, in response to the draft, he joined a part of the military which had about the same odds of seeing any actual combat as the Boy Scouts. Legal? Yes. Morally equivalent to actual draft-dodging? Oh _fuck yes_. And then there was that report, which got some airtime. But the difference in reaction couldn’t have been greater. After the swift boat claims fell apart, Fox News and the right wing echo chamber kept on beating that horse right up to election day. Meanwhile, CBS, when it found out the report was a forgery (and that they had been duped) immediately posted a retraction and _fired Dan Rather_. This is the difference between right-wing journalism and honest journalism. No scandal is too fake for FOX News; real news outlets who have to consider their reputation (because they don’t have a gigantic fanbase of mouth-breathing sycophants who consider every other news channel somewhere to the left of Castro) _make strides to correct their mistakes and care about whether what they report is true_. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/23 "2013-12-16T07:19:40Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > He was never vindicated for anything. He made statements to Congress about things he himself did not experience and he generally shit on the military. He couldn’t vindicate his behavior to those in the service who strongly objected to it. It was always that simple. He made the situation exponentially worse by wrapping himself in his military past. He did this to himself. Right. And this was the big scandal surrounding his military actions. OH WAIT NO IT WASN’T. The big scandal was that supposedly the grounds for his silver star were insultingly wrong. _Actual_ reporting revealed that to be completely baseless. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/24 "2013-12-16T07:47:16Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > He was never vindicated for anything. He made statements to Congress about things he himself did not experience and he generally shit on the military. He couldn’t vindicate his behavior to those in the service who strongly objected to it. It was always that simple. He made the situation exponentially worse by wrapping himself in his military past. He did this to himself. He made statements to Congress because he was asked to do so. In essence, he was asked the question “What did you hear at the Winter Soldier testimony?” By implication, it is also fair to say he was asked if he believed it. Hence, he was pointedly asked to give “hearsay” testimony and give his opinion, which he did. He can only be charged with lying about it if you know that the testimony he heard was false and that he knew it as well. Have you such proof to offer us? As for not shying away from his military record, why should he? He served honorably, was discharged honorably and decorated. Politically, that’s a bonus, has been for years and years. There was nothing dishonorable in his opposing the war. If anything, he and many like him were betrayed by the men who sent them on a fool’s errand. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/25 "2013-12-16T12:46:10Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Gardening, you’ll thank me later. > > Dems were painting George XLIII as a draft dodger, I don’t blame the Reps for painting John F Kennedy as a chicken assed PT boat captain. > > er … John Kerry as a chicken assed Swift Boat captain … if you get my drift. > > In hindsight I’d say it didn’t really matter, it didn’t change my vote at all. Anyone else’s? Well, truth ought to matter here. Dubya WAS a draft dodger, service in the National Reserve was a well-known way of avoiding the draft at the time. John Kerry was a Swift Boat captain, one of the most hazardous duties in Vietnam … not something a coward does. Those were the facts of the matter. I think the Republican swiftboating of Kerry was one of the low point in Republican ethics at that time, though there have been so many low points since that “Republican ethics” is fast approaching oxymoron status, if it isn’t there already. That said, my ire about Swiftboating has mostly been aimed at the mainstream media, who were played like violins by Rove and his agents during the campaign. The mainstream media has fallen into the lazy, sloppy habit of using false equivalences to substitute for actual reporting to make themselves look objective. In any controversial story, the ending usually consists of a summary of the two positions on the controversy. Something like: “Republicans say John Kerry was a self-aggrandizing conniver during his service in Vietnam, that he exaggerated the extent of his injuries in combat to obtain a Purple Heart, while Democrats insist he was a war hero who served bravely under fire. It may never be possible to know the truth of the matter, but the debate rages on.” The obvious truth of the matter was that John Kerry served honorably in Vietnam, in combat, while Dubya kept the skies over San Pedro Island free of all the nothing that was attacking it, because his father used his influence to get him a cushy post in the National Reserve. But the media didn’t bother to pound the TRUTH home, they were satisfied with their pat false equivalences. The mainstream media served their country very poorly during the Swiftboating campaign … and continue to do so, to this day. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/26 "2013-12-16T14:21:10Z")
In 2004, I was dismayed by the tactic. I said, at the time: > [@New SBVFT ad -- will we never put Vietnam behind us?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-sbvft-ad-will-we-never-put-vietnam-behind-us/263037/17): > > The man went over there in uniform, in a place where people were shooting at him. He did his duty. If ANYONE is entitled to come home and speak to lawmakers about the wisdom of our Vietnam policy, it’s a guy like John Kerry. He EARNED THE RIGHT. I’m not talking about his medals - I’m talking about wearing the uniform and being in the jungle. I don’t care if it was for four days or four weeks or four months or four years. He did his job. He didn’t portest and dodge a draft. He didn’t defer. He didn’t join the Coasties. He put on the uniform and did his freakin job. > > That’s it, as far as I am concerned. Case closed. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/27 "2013-12-16T14:38:32Z")
I’d call Swiftboating a low point in republican campaigning, but it’s not even the low point in _that administration_. Not when you have Terry Schiavo. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/28 "2013-12-16T14:40:58Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Well, in response to the draft, he joined a part of the military which had about the same odds of seeing any actual combat as the Boy Scouts. Legal? Yes. Morally equivalent to actual draft-dodging? Oh _fuck yes_. I’ll say “fuck no”. Someone who went underground, or to Canada or Sweden, to evade the draft did so knowing it was illegal, that exposing himself or even simply coming home meant going to prison. It was an act of courage as well as conscience. The National Guard dodge that Bush chose had no negative consequences to it, took no courage, and is hardly morally equivalent. Hell, even going AWOL and effectively deserting, as Bush did, had no negative consequences for a Fortunate Son, as we know. That’s what started Rove and the “Useful Idiots” on the swiftboating lies campaign, the fact that Kerry’s service was honorable and courageous and that the candidate of the stereotypically pro-military party could not say the same. That characterizes his general approach to campaigning - go after your opponent’s strong points with whatever it takes, lies included, until he looks weaker than your guy on them. Enough people bought the lies, including even in this very forum, to make it effective. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/29 "2013-12-16T14:52:33Z")
Interesting thread. I have a few questions about Kerry: -when he threw his Vietnam service medals over the fence (while at a protest march), were these medals actually his? -he claimed to have spend a Christmas eve in Cambodian territory; has this been verified? -he was reputed to have brought an 8 mm movie camera along on his swiftboat missions (and commanded a subordinate to film him); is this true? Are any of these films on Youtube? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/30 "2013-12-16T14:54:47Z")
The most comprehensive debunking site is [here](http://swiftvets.eriposte.com/). Have at it. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/31 "2013-12-16T15:04:43Z")
As I recall it at the time, the truth was somewhere in between. Kerry lied about a lot of things, and exagerated his own role and heroism etc., and this left him open to some legitimate criticism. Especially since he made his own heroism a central part of his campaign, at least in the early going. A lot of the supposed “debunking” of the Swiftboat veterans’s claims amounted to little or nothing more than the media deciding that in the face of contradictory evidence and recollections they would choose Kerry’s version of events over that of the Swiftboat veterans. That said, it does seem that some of the Swiftboat claims are less than fully credible, and they presumably overshot their mark, based on antipathy to Kerry’s politics and overreaction to his misstatements. That’s how I remember it at the time, and I’ve not followed it since that time and assume that this still holds, but I’m not as conversant with the details as I was then. ---
**Author:** ![Dostoyevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5a626/32.png) [@Dostoyevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dostoyevsky)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/32 "2013-12-16T15:07:11Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Kerry lied about a lot of things, and exagerated his own role and heroism etc. What were his supposed lies and exaggerations? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/33 "2013-12-16T15:08:03Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > I’d call Swiftboating a low point in republican campaigning, but it’s not even the low point in _that administration_. Not when you have Terry Schiavo. I don’t think the Swiftboating campaign approaches the “John McCain has an illegitimate black child” push poll. Kerry ran in part on his service record. McCain didn’t run on his record of being an adopted parent. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/34 "2013-12-16T15:09:01Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I’ll say “fuck no”. Someone who went underground, or to Canada or Sweden, to evade the draft did so knowing it was illegal, that exposing himself or even simply coming home meant going to prison. It was an act of courage as well as conscience. The National Guard dodge that Bush chose had no negative consequences to it, took no courage, and is hardly morally equivalent. Hell, even going AWOL and effectively deserting, as Bush did, had no negative consequences for a Fortunate Son, as we know. Okay, should’ve said “morally equivalent or worse”. But the point stands - if Bush had straight-up dodged the draft, his chances of going to Vietnam or seeing any actual conflict would have been the same. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/35 "2013-12-16T15:11:30Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I don’t think the Swiftboating campaign approaches the “John McCain has an illegitimate black child” push poll. That was a thing republicans did? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/36 "2013-12-16T15:14:47Z")
[Rove did](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/08/26/46344/-The-anatomy-of-a-smear-campaign-Rove-s-Push-Polls), if not “Republicans”. Let’s set the Wayback Machine to 2000 and the South Carolina primary: > [@](#): > > Bush’s campaign strategists, including Karl Rove, devised a push poll against John McCain. South Carolina voters were asked “Would you be more likely or less likely to vote for John McCain for president if you knew he had fathered an illegitimate black child?”. His adoptive daughter is from Bangladesh, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/37 "2013-12-16T15:32:10Z")
> [@Dostoyevsky](#): > > What were his supposed lies and exaggerations? I don’t recall precisely. (The Cambodia claim was one. And a lot of the claims about his various medals and awards had witnesses on both sides of the issue.) I’m not up for a debate about Swiftboat details at this time. I thought you were interested in whether any “Republicans” felt there was anything to the Swiftboat claims. If not, then I apologize. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I don’t think the Swiftboating campaign approaches the “John McCain has an illegitimate black child” push poll. If you ask me, neither of these approach the “Mitt Romney paid no taxes” claim in the most recent election. Unlike both of these instances, the taxes claim was pushed at the highest levels of the Democratic Party. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/38 "2013-12-16T15:37:59Z")
[Jon Huntsman Sr.](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/31/jon-huntsman-sr-romney-taxes_n_4184334.html) is a Democrat? ---
**Author:** ![Dostoyevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5a626/32.png) [@Dostoyevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dostoyevsky)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/39 "2013-12-16T15:39:01Z")
\*Nevermind. ---
**Author:** ![Dostoyevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5a626/32.png) [@Dostoyevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dostoyevsky)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/40 "2013-12-16T15:40:02Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I’m not up for a debate about Swiftboat details at this time. Fair enough, and I appreciate your contribution. I didn’t mean to start a debate with you. I was just curious about the details. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411.md?page=3)