# "Republicans," what's your take on John Kerry and Swiftboating? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 15, 2013, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411 "2013-12-15T21:57:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/381 "2014-01-02T17:55:35Z")
Is that what he did? Or are you only describing an accusation? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/382 "2014-01-02T18:46:48Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Bush Senior. Served in WWII, with multiple decorations. I wasn’t in the US at the time of the elections - was his service record a big part of his campaign? I mentioned him specifically and spoke to this. (?) Bush’s war record didn’t really come up, as I recall. The thing is that Bush had been Vice President for eight years; his pre-VP resume was barely mentioned at all, since his eight years as VP, and Reagan’s performance, were the dominant issues concerning Bush’s suitability to be President. The 1988 election was essentially about whether you liked the way things had gone from 20/1/1981 to November 1988. If you did, you voted Bush, and if not, you voted Dukakis. Most people did, so Bush was swept in. I think another factor is that World War II was a bit longer ago (though not that much; it ended 43 years before Bush ran for President, while Vietnam ended about 30 years before Kerry did) and was uncontroversial in terms of participation. If you were a man of the right age and healthy enough to serve your country, you did. Some people had a job that saw combat (Bush, Dole, Kennedy) some were kind of in between (Ford) and some did not (Nixon) but with few exceptions everyone threw on a uniform and went to war in one capacity or another. There was nothing at all controversial about Nixon being in a noncombat role; someone has to be an officer in Air Transport Command, it’s an important job and he was good at it. Vietnam, conversely, saw many men go voluntarily (McCain, Kerry) many go involuntarily, and quite a lot of men figure out a way to not go (Clinton) or deliberately get a safe job Stateside (Bush 2.0), and the war has since come to be regarded as a catastrophic error where dodging combat duty isn’t necessary a terrible shame and people sort of understand why Clinton and Bush stayed out of harm’s way in a way we would regard as cowardly if it happened in WWII. So there’s actually an issue there that there literally could not have been in the 1960 election between Kennedy and Nixon; it’s inconceivable that either party in 1960 would have had a politician who dodged service in WWII in a position to be nominated. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/383 "2014-01-02T18:59:24Z")
You know what the ironic thing is? Kerry stepped aside as spokesman for the VVAW because he thought the “medal tossing” demonstration made its point, and should not be repeated, nor did he approve of any disruptive “street theater” type actions. He believed that his testimony and the very presence of Viet Nam veterans at anti-war demonstrations was sufficient, that America’s opinion was turning in their favor, and radical demonstrations would only strengthen the opposition. I can’t say that I don’t have an opinion on that, I have two. I had and continue to have several good friends in the VVAW, and they were evenly split as well. But none would say that he didn’t stand and deliver, walk the walk, and speak truth to power. The argument was over strategy, nothing else, and Kerry was, well, a liberal. 'Nuff sed. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/384 "2014-01-02T19:11:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > … (agree with **elucidator** , that is) It’s OK, you’re smart, we’re right, we’ll get you sooner or later. And if not, you’ll most likely send your kids to college. We can wait. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/385 "2014-01-02T19:20:09Z")
OTOH, after that maybe his kids will, like, get a job, you know, and flip back again … ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/386 "2014-01-02T19:25:48Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Changing your mind about something 30 years later is flip-flopping? Do you believe Kerry changed his mind about the Viet Nam war and his participation in it? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/387 "2014-01-02T20:34:36Z")
No. I believe he changed his mind about whether he wanted his medals. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2014, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/388 "2014-01-02T20:42:35Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > It’s OK, you’re smart, we’re right, we’ll get you sooner or later. I dunno. My experience has always been that the power of stubborn is far greater than the power of smart. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/389 "2014-01-03T00:12:39Z")
Despair may be more sensible, but not nearly as much fun. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/390 "2014-01-03T00:53:47Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Bush’s war record didn’t really come up, as I recall. It came up some, more in 1992 than in 1988, usually as a contrast with Clinton. So, in Buchanan’s convention speech: > [@](#): > > George Bush was 17 when they bombed Pearl Harbor. He left his high school class, walked down to the recruiting office, and signed up to become the youngest fighter pilot in the Pacific war. And Mr Clinton? When Bill Clinton’s turn came in Vietnam, he sat up in a dormitory in Oxford, England, and figured out how to dodge the draft. Or McCain’s > [@](#): > > On September 2, 1944, the youngest aviator in the United States Navy had a near brush with death as his plane was hit by an enemy fire over an island in the Pacific. As an 18-year- old, that pilot had left his family and the pleasures of youth to risk his life for love of country – first before his own welfare, first before his personal ambitions, first before his very life. > > Throughout a lifetime of service to America, George Bush has never lost the devotion to duty that led him to take his turn in a bomber’s cockpit and be hurled into a terrible conflict for the sake of his country and its cause. Nor has he forgotten the sacrifices made by all Americans who served their nations in war. > > When Bill Clinton accepted his party’s nomination, he made no mention of America’s veterans or the suffering they endured on our behalf. His party’s convention began with veterans parading the colors. But after that brief moment of attention, no further word was uttered for them. Perhaps, they were sent to the same broom closet where the Democratic leadership of Congress was hidden. He did it in '88 too, largely as part of a “Dukakis and the Democrats are soft of defense” thing. But it was always more implied than stated. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/391 "2014-01-03T01:31:32Z")
Interesting editing for “Poppy” Bush. His “near brush with death…enemy fire…” resulted in his being shot down. IIRC, his crewman was lost, as was the airplane, and “Poppy” was rescued. Afterwards, the youngest pilot received no further combat assignments. And it was George McGovern who flew the bomber. Twenty five missions over Germany, was it? Criticism of McCain suggest he was not that good a pilot but had a “fighter jock” mentality, the kind of mentality to deftly limned in Tom Wolfe’s _The Right Stuff_. The suggestion being that he went beyond the intent of his mission with a “hot dog” approach to his actions which his relatively poor skills could not support. Audie Murphy, of course, did in fact wipe out a battalion of elite SS commandoes, which might be remarkable if he weren’t a Texan. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/392 "2014-01-03T01:46:06Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No. I believe he changed his mind about whether he wanted his medals. I disagree with this assessment. There’s no flip-flop or doublethink between throwing away your medals earned in a war you found morally reprehensible and drawing attention to the fact that you acted with moral standing and bravery in said war. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/393 "2014-01-03T02:16:10Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Audie Murphy, of course, did in fact wipe out a battalion of elite SS commandoes, which might be remarkable if he weren’t a Texan. And the closest Clinton got to combat was a drive-by shooting of a woman in a blue dress. Did he at least have the courteous to yell “incoming”? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/394 "2014-01-03T02:24:55Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Interesting editing for “Poppy” Bush. His “near brush with death…enemy fire…” resulted in his being shot down. IIRC, his crewman was lost, as was the airplane, and “Poppy” was rescued. Afterwards, the youngest pilot received no further combat assignments. And it was George McGovern who flew the bomber. Twenty five missions over Germany, was it? Bush flew a total of 58 missions, and the plane that was shot down was a Grumman Avenger, which was a torpedo bomber. Both the other members of the crew died; one didn’t eject, and the other’s chute didn’t open. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/395 "2014-01-03T02:29:40Z")
SBVT was funded largely by people with connections to the Bush campaign. While that in and of itself does not indicate that their claims were false, it’s food for thought. And it is undisputed that some people connected with SBVT were handsomely rewarded after Bush was re-elected. From [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swift_Vets_and_POWs_for_Truth): > [@](#): > > Retired Admiral William Schachte, a principal source for the SBVT allegations about Kerry’s first Purple Heart, has donated to both of Bush’s presidential campaigns. Schachte was also a lobbyist for FastShip, a firm that recently announced it was receiving $40 million in federal funding for one of its projects. In addition, Schachte’s lobbying firm associate, David Norcross, was chairman of the 2004 Republican convention At the time, I was working for the firm in which Schachte and Norcross were partners (a different division). It was generally known that they (among others) were doing this (funding SBVT and, in the case of Schachte, providing stories) in the hope of reaping large rewards after the election. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/396 "2014-01-03T06:23:18Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Bush flew a total of 58 missions, and the plane that was shot down was a Grumman Avenger, which was a torpedo bomber. Both the other members of the crew died; one didn’t eject, and the other’s chute didn’t open. Record corrected. ---
**Author:** ![Ispolkom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e47774/32.png) [@Ispolkom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ispolkom)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2014, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/397 "2014-01-04T04:03:23Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Bush flew a total of 58 missions, and the plane that was shot down was a Grumman Avenger, which was a torpedo bomber. Both the other members of the crew died; one didn’t eject, and the other’s chute didn’t open. Slight correction: one didn’t get out of the airplane. Avengers, like almost all WW2 aircraft, didn’t have ejection seats. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2014, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/398 "2014-01-15T17:42:03Z")
The Onion weighs in: [Swift Boat Veterans Clear John Kerry After Exhaustive 9-Year Investigation](http://www.theonion.com/video/swift-boat-veterans-for-truth-clear-john-kerry-aft,34945/) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/399 "2014-01-17T00:56:27Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > But that’s not what’s at issue here. > > What he’s being accused of is turning around and embracing those same medals when it became politically expedient for him to do so. Not conceding that he did this…but if he did, so what? In my view, when you wear a uniform in a strange land that invites people you don’t know to shoot at you, and you further distinguish yourself in such a way that you are recognized with medals, you have earned every right in the world to embrace those medals on odd days, reject them on even days, and hang 'em on your johnson every Leap Day. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/400 "2014-01-17T02:24:25Z")
Would dramatically change the ceremony of pinning the medal to the deserving hero. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411.md?page=21)