# "Republicans," what's your take on John Kerry and Swiftboating? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 15, 2013, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411 "2013-12-15T21:57:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/41 "2013-12-16T15:43:31Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > He was loathed and made fun of for his actions at the time. Well, yes, he was, but only by rat-bastard idiots. > [@Magiver](#): > > He was never vindicated for anything. He made statements to Congress about things he himself did not experience and he generally shit on the military. [Here](http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Vietnam_Veterans_Against_the_War_Statement) is the complete text of Kerry’s statement in the [Fulbright Hearings](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulbright_Hearings) reporting the results of the [Winter Soldier Investigation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_Soldier_Investigation). By all means, point out the lies. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/42 "2013-12-16T15:43:52Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > [Rove did](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/08/26/46344/-The-anatomy-of-a-smear-campaign-Rove-s-Push-Polls), if not “Republicans”. Let’s set the Wayback Machine to 2000 and the South Carolina primary: > His adoptive daughter is from Bangladesh, IIRC. Ugh. I heard something about a Kennedy and pedophilia from Al Franken’s book, but I wasn’t quite sure how serious to take it. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > If you ask me, neither of these approach the “Mitt Romney paid no taxes” claim in the most recent election. Unlike both of these instances, the taxes claim was pushed at the highest levels of the Democratic Party. Wait, really? You’re going to claim that a false claim which _nobody_ bought into from day one (no, seriously - Harry Reid was seen as a jackass from _both_ sides of the political spectrum for that one, and he was pretty much the _only_ person espousing that view) which would have painted an out-of-touch rich white guy as a slightly more out-of-touch rich white guy as equivalent to a pack of lies which paint a decorated Vietnam war veteran as a coward and a fraud? Dude. Take off the partisan blinders for about 5 seconds and you’ll see how dumb that sounds. This was not “the highest levels of the Democratic Party”. This was Harry Reid being an ass. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/43 "2013-12-16T15:52:43Z")
The Swiftboat veterans served honorably and they had a right to make their feelings about his service known. They were not the ones who decided to make a his service an issue, he did. I don’t see anything wrong with what they did. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/44 "2013-12-16T15:54:15Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I don’t think the Swiftboating campaign approaches the “John McCain has an illegitimate black child” push poll. Kerry ran in part on his service record. McCain didn’t run on his record of being an adopted parent. There was never a John McCain illegitimate child push poll. That was an chain email. The only push poll was criticizing McCain for comparing Bush to Clinton. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/45 "2013-12-16T15:59:12Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > [Jon Huntsman Sr.](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/31/jon-huntsman-sr-romney-taxes_n_4184334.html) is a Democrat? Well no, but he’s the father of one of Romney’s rivals so hardly the most reliable of sources. As for Kerry, yeah he pretty clearly lied about his military record with his “Christmas in Cambodia story” and his racist story of being fired on by a bunch of drunken South Vietnamese soldiers celebrating Christmas(highly unlikely for Buddhist soldiers). I remember lots of people being shocked to find out after the inordinate amount of time he spent promoting his war record it turning out he only served three-and-a-half months and legitimate questions over whether he’d “earned” his medals or not(particularly one of the Purple Hearts). That said, I think the issue there was more “medal inflation” where the military started throwing around huge amounts of medals for relatively pedestrian actions that they hadn’t done in previous wars to try and enhance morale. I still voted for him. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/46 "2013-12-16T16:04:07Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Well no, but he’s the father of one of Romney’s rivals so hardly the most reliable of sources. By the time of Reid’s statement, both Huntsmans were Romney supporters. > [@](#): > > As for Kerry, yeah he pretty clearly lied about his military record with his “Christmas in Cambodia story” and his racist story of being fired on by a bunch of drunken South Vietnamese soldiers celebrating Christmas(highly unlikely for Buddhist soldiers). [Sorting this one out too:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kerry_military_service_controversy#Cambodia_mission) > [@](#): > > Kerry did not claim to have been sent on a covert mission to Cambodia on Christmas Eve, 1968. Rather, he believed at the time he had crossed the border while on a patrol near the border, during which the boats were ambushed and later came under friendly fire from South Vietnamese soldiers…Some crewmembers have, moreover, stated that they may at some point have entered Cambodia without knowing it. James Wasser, who was on PCF-44 on that December mission, while saying that he believed they were “very, very close” to Cambodia, did not recall actually crossing over; he also stated that it was very hard to tell their exact position in the border area. Kerry’s own journal entry on this, written the night of the mission, does not specifically say they entered Cambodia. However, it does state that PCF-44 was somewhere “toward Cambodia” to provide cover for two smaller patrol boats, and in sarcasm, that he considered messaging Christmas greetings to his commanders “from the most inland Market Time unit” and that a court martial for the incident “would make sense”. In addition, George Elliott noted in Kerry’s fitness report that he had been in an ambush during the 24 hour Christmas truce, which began on Christmas Eve. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/47 "2013-12-16T16:04:35Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Wait, really? You’re going to claim that a false claim which _nobody_ bought into from day one (no, seriously - Harry Reid was seen as a jackass from _both_ sides of the political spectrum for that one, and he was pretty much the _only_ person espousing that view) which would have painted an out-of-touch rich white guy as a slightly more out-of-touch rich white guy as equivalent to a pack of lies which paint a decorated Vietnam war veteran as a coward and a fraud? Dude. Take off the partisan blinders for about 5 seconds and you’ll see how dumb that sounds. This was not “the highest levels of the Democratic Party”. This was Harry Reid being an ass. Your claim that “nobody” bought into the claim is nonsense and counterfactual. (FWIW, either the Obama campaign or some affiliated group - I don’t recall which - actually ran ads in battleground states based on this theme.) And dismissing the Senate Majority leader as some nobody while playing up obscure pushpolls and other outside groups is ridiculous. The other part of your claim - essentially that the false claim about Romney nonetheless captured an essential truth about him - is what might be described as the result of “partisan blinders”. Though it’a fairly common phenomenon on this board. “Our lies don’t count and yours do, because ours are essentially true as to the broader picture and yours are not”. Comes up a lot, e.g. WRT to the Rathergate scandal and other stories of this sort. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/48 "2013-12-16T16:05:57Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > I don’t see anything wrong with what they did. Not even their lying? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/49 "2013-12-16T16:18:07Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > As for Kerry, yeah he pretty clearly lied about his military record with his “Christmas in Cambodia story” and his racist story of being fired on by a bunch of drunken South Vietnamese soldiers celebrating Christmas(highly unlikely for Buddhist soldiers). South Vietnam had a large Christian minority, especially prevalent in government and the military. Even today, Christians are a significant minority in the unified country. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/50 "2013-12-16T16:18:14Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > The Swiftboat veterans served honorably and they had a right to make their feelings about his service known. They were not the ones who decided to make a his service an issue, he did. I don’t see anything wrong with what they did. Wait, you mean you don’t see anything wrong with extensively lying about the record to intentionally slander a political candidate because he brought up the subject? Surely then, if you were running for president and one of your large previous endeavors had been a major charity organization, then you wouldn’t object to people lying about you embezzling money and funding hate groups - after all, _you_ made it an issue. :rolleyes: Come on man. If you’re going to play apologist for some of the dirtiest campaigning in a long time, then at least _pretend_ to know what you’re talking about. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Your claim that “nobody” bought into the claim is nonsense and counterfactual. (FWIW, either the Obama campaign or some affiliated group - I don’t recall which - actually ran ads in battleground states based on this theme.) Citation needed on that ad campaign. Obviously, some particularly thick people bought it. But it never had much thrust behind it. It was a statement made by one congressman that primarily got traction among those on the _right_ - as something to point to and say, “Look, look, liberals say incredibly stupid things too”. > [@](#): > > And dismissing the Senate Majority leader as some nobody while playing up obscure pushpolls and other outside groups is ridiculous. Compare the impact the swift boat vets had on the 2004 election to the impact Reid’s claims about Romney’s tax returns had on the 2012 election. Yeah. There _is_ a ridiculous comparison in here. It’s just that you’re the one being ridiculous by comparing the two in the first place! > [@](#): > > The other part of your claim - essentially that the false claim about Romney nonetheless captured an essential truth about him - is what might be described as the result of “partisan blinders”. Though it’a fairly common phenomenon on this board. “Our lies don’t count and yours do, because ours are essentially true as to the broader picture and yours are not”. Comes up a lot, e.g. WRT to the Rathergate scandal and other stories of this sort. “Rathergate”? Really? :rolleyes: Look, the fact of the matter is that Bush got help from various political connections and ended up in the Texas Air National Guard instead of on the draft rolls. This is morally equivalent to, if not worse, than straight-up leaving the country, burning your draft card, or going into hiding; functionally, he had zero chance of seeing any actual wartime action, and both him and his daddy knew it. That the specific claims reported by Rather about him going AWOL were false were widely acknowledged, and Rather was sacked as a result after a lot of hand-wringing apologies and retractions. Nobody is claiming that that didn’t count as a false statement. A lie? Hard to say; Rather is almost certainly guilty of nothing more than overly credulous reporting and not backing down from his story. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/51 "2013-12-16T16:27:02Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Rather is almost certainly guilty of nothing more than overly credulous reporting and not backing down from his story. Oh, by the way, for those paying attention: the _latter_ is the worse part here. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/52 "2013-12-16T16:29:46Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > South Vietnam had a large Christian minority, especially prevalent in government and the military. Even today, Christians are a significant minority in the unified country. Indeed, it could fairly be said that the very source of the National Liberation Front was Buddhist protest against the leadership of a Catholic minority, installed under the auspices of a colonial France. The monks blazing in the streets of Saigon were not protesting the injustice of the ruling class on the proletariat. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/53 "2013-12-16T16:38:50Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Citation needed on that ad campaign. Obviously, some particularly thick people bought it. But it never had much thrust behind it. It was a statement made by one congressman that primarily got traction among those on the _right_ - as something to point to and say, “Look, look, liberals say incredibly stupid things too”. [Cite](http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2012/08/obama-ad-suggests-romney-paid-no-taxes.html) ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/54 "2013-12-16T16:49:04Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > South Vietnam had a large Christian minority, especially prevalent in government and the military. Even today, Christians are a significant minority in the unified country. Yes and no. Christians were a wealthy elite, that accounted for about 10% of the population and were grossly over represented amongst the officers, but grossly underrepresented amongst the enlisted personnel who’d have been doing the drinking and the shooting. Anyway it was part of his whole “Christmas in Cambodia” story that even his supporters run away from because of its obvious falseness. Anyway I voted for him and didn’t care about some minor lies(though I can see why others felt they were major). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/55 "2013-12-16T16:50:38Z")
You know, Christmas is a very popular holiday in Japan despite Christians being a small minority there. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/56 "2013-12-16T16:52:18Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Wait, you mean you don’t see anything wrong with extensively lying about the record to intentionally slander a political candidate because he brought up the subject? Surely then, if you were running for president and one of your large previous endeavors had been a major charity organization, then you wouldn’t object to people lying about you embezzling money and funding hate groups - after all, _you_ made it an issue. :rolleyes: Come on man. If you’re going to play apologist for some of the dirtiest campaigning in a long time, then at least _pretend_ to know what you’re talking about. The events the swiftboat veterans took part in happened 30 years before in very stressful circumstances. It only makes sense that there are various memories of what happened over there. If it is verboten to question the word of a war hero then that should go both ways as they were war heros too. I read the various desciptions of what happened during that time and people seem confused about what happened, but I don’t think anyone was deliberately lying. If you look at the ads the Swift Boat veterans ran, most of what they said was about the actions taken after he got back from Vietnam. The one ad had actual audio from his testimony in congress. All that stuff was true and not in dispute. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/57 "2013-12-16T16:56:51Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > You know, Christmas is a very popular holiday in Japan despite Christians being a small minority there. It’s also big in Vietnam. There is nothing hard to believe about soldiers firing guns in celebration on Christmas. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/58 "2013-12-16T16:58:49Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > If you look at the ads the Swift Boat veterans ran, most of what they said was about the actions taken after he got back from Vietnam. The one ad had actual audio from his testimony in congress. All that stuff was true and not in dispute. And not objectionable, either. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/59 "2013-12-16T16:59:24Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Anyway it was part of his whole “Christmas in Cambodia” story that even his supporters run away from because of its obvious falseness. Perhaps you might favor us with a link to what you claim his story was? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/60 "2013-12-16T17:04:11Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > He made statements to Congress because he was asked to do so. In essence, he was asked the question “What did you hear at the Winter Soldier testimony?” By implication, it is also fair to say he was asked if he believed it. > > Hence, he was pointedly asked to give “hearsay” testimony and give his opinion, which he did. He can only be charged with lying about it if you know that the testimony he heard was false and that he knew it as well. > > Have you such proof to offer us? > > As for not shying away from his military record, why should he? He served honorably, was discharged honorably and decorated. Politically, that’s a bonus, has been for years and years. There was nothing dishonorable in his opposing the war. If anything, he and many like him were betrayed by the men who sent them on a fool’s errand. You’ll have to cite that he was asked for heresay evidence from other people by Congress for me to believe you. And regardless, it’s dishonorable in the eyes of many of those who fought in Vietnam to report heresay evidence against fellow soldiers. If you don’t feel that way that’s fine but I know a lot of vets who do feel that way. And your opinion doesn’t mean fuck to them and never will. They had a right to be heard and they were heard. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411.md?page=4)