# "Republicans," what's your take on John Kerry and Swiftboating? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 15, 2013, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411 "2013-12-15T21:57:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/61 "2013-12-16T17:06:27Z")
[Here’s a full transcript](http://www.wintersoldier.com/index.php?topic=Testimony), **Magiver**. Knock yourself out. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/62 "2013-12-16T17:16:55Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > If you ask me, neither of these approach the “Mitt Romney paid no taxes” claim in the most recent election. Unlike both of these instances, the taxes claim was pushed at the highest levels of the Democratic Party. Mr. Romney could have made Mr. Reid shut up and apologize, all he had to do we release the tax forms. Romney made the calculation that releasing the forms would cause more political fallout than not releasing them- care to speculate why that was? As it was, he passed on some deductions so that the taxes paid on the year he did release wouldn’t be ridiculously small. I for one would not be surprised if on election night he filed the amended return to get those deductions back. With Kerry, the Rovian spin machine twisted Kerry’s war record against him, so that the man who faced enemy fire and was wounded in action was a coward and the guy who dodged the draft by joining the National Guard, and then later dodged the dodge because they were about to test for cocaine was the next incarnation of Rambo. The Rather report was completely factual, Bush indeed used political influence to get into the Guard so that he wouldn’t have to risk his privileged coke-snorting ass in combat. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/63 "2013-12-16T17:20:23Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Mr. Romney could have made Mr. Reid shut up and apologize, all he had to do we release the tax forms. So you’re in the “fair” camp, then, I take it wrt the OP’s questions. All’s fair in love and politics? ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/64 "2013-12-16T17:26:26Z")
> [@Dostoyevsky](#): > > BTW, I put “Republicans” in quotes, because I’m interested in what anyone who isn’t generally liberal in his/her politics thinks about this controversy, Registered liberarian. IMO, there were three, seperate, distinct issues. 1. The claim that Kerry did not earn his medals or somehow worked the system to get an early discharge. 2. The claim that Kerry, upon his return, was exagerrating or fabricating the atrocities he claimed to have witnessed. 3. The claim that years after his service, Kerry continued to lie about his service, even while on the floor of the senate; e.g. that it was “seared” into his memory that he was in Cambodia at a time he almost certainly wasn’t. 4. Bothers me very little. It was Vietnam, can’t fucking blame him even if he did. 5. Bothers me more. It suggests that he was a young man of very poor character. Then again, being as he was aiming to be a politician, I tend to take that as a given. 6. Bothers me significantly. It suggests a public official willing to tell lies year after year, not in a moment of passion, but in a calculated way just to get some vote to go his way. Then again, he was a Senator, so I tend to take that as a given. IMO, when most liberals attacked the “swiftboat vets,” they attacked claim #1. what most of the vets were really worked up about was #2. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/65 "2013-12-16T17:27:57Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > So you’re in the “fair” camp, then, I take it wrt the OP’s questions. All’s fair in love and politics? Reid was fair because the accusation about Romney was true. The Swift Boat Liars For Bush are lying vermin who should be stripped of their citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/66 "2013-12-16T17:28:54Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Reid was fair because the accusation about Romney was true. The Swift Boat Liars For Bush are lying vermin who should be stripped of their citizenship. _Okaaaaaay_… ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/67 "2013-12-16T17:32:37Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Reid was fair because the accusation about Romney was true. You might want to fight this out with **Budget Player Cadet** , who is equally passionate in defense of The Cause, but whose defense rests on the claim that nobody believed Reid anyway. Other than “some particularly thick people” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/68 "2013-12-16T17:33:33Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > _Okaaaaaay_… I don’t find the concept difficult. Exposing a tax dodger is admirable, lying about a wounded veteran is not. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/69 "2013-12-16T17:33:54Z")
> [@furt](#): > > 1. The claim that Kerry, upon his return, was exagerrating or fabricating the atrocities he claimed to have witnessed. > > \ > > IMO, when most liberals attacked the “swiftboat vets,” they attacked claim #1. what most of the vets were really worked up about was #2. Actually, I think they objected to his making the statements as such, regardless of whether they were true or false. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/70 "2013-12-16T17:36:29Z")
> [@furt](#): > > 1. Bothers me very little. … > 2. Bothers me more… > 3. Bothers me significantly. … > > IMO, when most liberals attacked the “swiftboat vets,” they attacked claim #1. what most of the vets were really worked up about was #2. Shouldn’t you be bothered about the truth of the claims themselves? Why are you accepting them as true without question? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/71 "2013-12-16T17:44:46Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > In hindsight I’d say it didn’t really matter, it didn’t change my vote at all. Anyone else’s? Reports on voter interviews show that very many switched to Bush because they had “doubts about Kerry’s military record.” If these included just 1.1% of Ohio’s voters, then the Swiftboat campaign swung the election. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/72 "2013-12-16T17:51:59Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > [Here’s a full transcript](http://www.wintersoldier.com/index.php?topic=Testimony), **Magiver**. Knock yourself out. knock YOURSELF out. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/73 "2013-12-16T18:00:02Z")
What are you asking me to do? Find his “lies” there myself? Or should I just take your word for it that they’re there? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/74 "2013-12-16T18:02:59Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I don’t find the concept difficult. Exposing a tax dodger is admirable… Not if you need [4 Pinocchios to do the “exposing”.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/four-pinocchios-for-harry-reids-claim-about-mitt-romneys-taxes/2012/08/06/c31a1402-e007-11e1-8fc5-a7dcf1fc161d_blog.html) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/75 "2013-12-16T18:05:15Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > What are you asking me to do? Find his “lies” there myself? Or should I just take your word for it that they’re there? :rolleyes: He’s asking this: > [@magaiver](#): > > You’ll have to cite that he was asked for heresay evidence from other people by Congress That was the claim **elucidator** made. I’m not sure if it’s true or not, but it’s a pretty serious claim, and should be backed up with a cite. I didn’t see anything in your cite to back it up. Not saying there isn’t another, better cite out there, but I don’t think yours fits the bill. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/76 "2013-12-16T18:07:46Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > He’s asking this: How about letting him make his own arguments? > [@](#): > > I didn’t see anything in your cite to back it up. Not saying there isn’t another, better cite out there, but I don’t think yours fits the bill. It’s the _entire fucking transcript_. :rolleyes: How’s that for a cite? Sheesh. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/77 "2013-12-16T18:08:09Z")
> [@Dostoyevsky](#): > > What were his supposed lies and exaggerations? Maybe that event that never happened but was nevertheless [“seared”](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27211-2004Aug23.html) into his memory? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/78 "2013-12-16T18:10:08Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > There was never a John McCain illegitimate child push poll. That was an chain email. The only push poll was criticizing McCain for comparing Bush to Clinton. [Sure there was](http://thisbluemarble.com/showthread.php?t=2245). You may be confusing it with the chain e-mail from a Bob Jones University professor, which also happened (the link is a cut and paste of a Boston Globe editorial which is paywalled.) ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/79 "2013-12-16T18:10:20Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > South Vietnam had a large Christian minority, especially prevalent in government and the military. Even today, Christians are a significant minority in the unified country. Oops, more details and facts! ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/80 "2013-12-16T18:13:52Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > How about letting him make his own arguments? He did - he quoted magiver. > [@](#): > > It’s the _entire fucking transcript_. :rolleyes: How’s that for a cite? > > Sheesh. I apologize in advance if you’re being facetious. A whole fucking transcript (book, whatever) is not a sufficient citation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411.md?page=5)