# "Republicans," what's your take on John Kerry and Swiftboating? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 15, 2013, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411 "2013-12-15T21:57:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/81 "2013-12-16T18:16:44Z")
The entire source material is not an adequate cite for its own contents, you say? Want to think that over a little more and get back to us? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/82 "2013-12-16T18:20:26Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > [Cite](http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2012/08/obama-ad-suggests-romney-paid-no-taxes.html) The absolute worst you could accuse that of is “Just Asking Questions”, and linking it to Reid’s statements seems questionable at best. That said, JAQ is pretty bad either way, so I’ll go halfway to admitting you’re right on this one. > [@puddleglum](#): > > The events the swiftboat veterans took part in happened 30 years before in very stressful circumstances. It only makes sense that there are various memories of what happened over there. If it is verboten to question the word of a war hero then that should go both ways as they were war heros too. I read the various desciptions of what happened during that time and people seem confused about what happened, but I don’t think anyone was deliberately lying. If you look at the ads the Swift Boat veterans ran, most of what they said was about the actions taken after he got back from Vietnam. The one ad had actual audio from his testimony in congress. All that stuff was true and not in dispute. I _wish_ we could give these guys the benefit of the doubt. I wish we could say that they were veterans with a real cause, who were simply confused (because we can be pretty damn sure they were wrong). But, unfortunately, [we can’t](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/20/politics/campaign/20swift.html). We can’t not just because of conflict of interest and who the financers were, but also because of the statements held by the very people who apparently changed their minds later. The evidence available, not just from that NYT article but also from numerous other sources, is _very_ damning. There’s nothing wrong with questioning a war hero. There’s a lot wrong with what happened here. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > You might want to fight this out with **Budget Player Cadet** , who is equally passionate in defense of The Cause, but whose defense rests on the claim that nobody believed Reid anyway. Other than “some particularly thick people” 🙂 Lesson learned: don’t overestimate the intelligent of the average American. Even if they aren’t republicans. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/83 "2013-12-16T18:25:04Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > How about letting him make his own arguments? I quoted his argument, but I happen to be interested in an answer to his question, too. And if you want to play that game, how about you let **elucidator** answer questions that are asked of him? \* Huh???\* > [@](#): > > It’s the _entire fucking transcript_. :rolleyes: How’s that for a cite? > > Sheesh. Well, I read the transcript and didn’t see where he was asked to report hearsay. Why don’t you quote the section that does that? Should be simple… if it’s there. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/84 "2013-12-16T18:27:20Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The entire source material is not an adequate cite for its own contents, you say? > > Want to think that over a little more and get back to us? No, it’s not. If I tell you something is in the Bible, and you say “where?” and I cite “the Bible,” what would you say? You need to provide a page number or similar locator with the source for it to be a proper citation. You can’t expect someone to read an entire large source material to find what you claim is in it. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/85 "2013-12-16T18:28:08Z")
Looks like only Iowa and New Mexico voted for Gore in 2000 and then voted for Bush in 2004. Whereas New Hampshire went the other way (from Wikipedia, sorry). Seems like in 47 states, the whole Swiftboating affair was of no matter. So what is it in one state where being a lying theivin’ coward makes a good President, where in two others it was better to elect the Great Moron? I can think of no other three states as culturally diverse as these (technically, Quebec isn’t a “state”… yet). Assuming the Swiftboat affair was the sole cause of the 8 electorial votes switch, it still wouldn’t matter in 2004. Not like the 11 votes in Al Gore’s home state of Tennessee in 2000. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/86 "2013-12-16T18:28:38Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, I read the transcript and didn’t see where he was asked to report hearsay. Why don’t you quote the section that does that? Should be simple… if it’s there. And that is \*exactly \*how one responds to someone who says the equivalent of “find it yourself” (more often heard in the form of “do your own research”). Well done. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/87 "2013-12-16T18:29:29Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > No, it’s not. > > If I tell you something is in the Bible, and you say “where?” and I cite “the Bible,” what would you say? \*\*Magiver \*\*is the one making the claim about what Kerry said, not me. To repeat: Sheesh. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/88 "2013-12-16T18:31:25Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > The absolute worst you could accuse that of is “Just Asking Questions”, and linking it to Reid’s statements seems questionable at best. That said, JAQ is pretty bad either way, so I’ll go halfway to admitting you’re right on this one. Sorry, given the limited nature and the context of my initial claim, I’m 100% correct on this. I didn’t say the Obama campaign made this claim explicitly. I said they “ran ads in battleground states based on this theme”. Which is completely correct. My point here was not that Obama (or whoever ran the ads) was as bad as Reid. Only to contradict your claim that no one took Reid seriously. The fact that Obama was running ads clearly designed to push this notion forward, even without stating it explicitly, shows that Reid’s claim was taken seriously by many people. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/89 "2013-12-16T18:32:01Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I > Well, I read the transcript and didn’t see where he was asked to report hearsay. He was invited to say what he had been told, by Winter Soldiers. If you ran a text search for the word “hearsay”, no wonder you didn’t find it. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Why don’t you quote the section that does that? Should be simple… if it’s there. Try his opening statement. Page 1. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/90 "2013-12-16T18:34:48Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > \*\*Magiver \*\*is the one making the claim about what Kerry said, not me. > > To repeat: Sheesh. But you are the one defending the use of an entire (long) transcript as a citation, not him. Sheesh. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/91 "2013-12-16T18:36:54Z")
Wrong yet again. I did some of his work for him, by linking everything he could possibly need to back it up. His sole response was, well, not in the highest traditions of the Service and all that. As is yours, incidentally. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/92 "2013-12-16T18:38:20Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Wrong yet again. You said: > [@](#): > > The entire source material is not an adequate cite for its own contents, you say? > > Want to think that over a little more and get back to us? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/93 "2013-12-16T18:38:37Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You’ll have to cite that he was asked for heresay evidence from other people by Congress for me to believe you. And regardless, it’s dishonorable in the eyes of many of those who fought in Vietnam to report heresay evidence against fellow soldiers. If you don’t feel that way that’s fine but I know a lot of vets who do feel that way. And your opinion doesn’t mean fuck to them and never will. They had a right to be heard and they were heard. (Sigh). Kerry attended Winter Soldier. There, he heard first hand testimony by veterans regarding things they had personally witnessed. If Kerry relates any of that to anyone else, his statements fall under the technical definition of “hearsay”: the witness is relating things he may or may not believe, but did not personally witness. Kerry was invited to speak before the Committee as a publicly acknowledged spokesperson for the Viet Nam Veterans Against The War. Hence, it is entirely correct and fair to say that he was invited to offer hearsay evidence. That “hearsay” is a term that often carries a negative connotation is not the point here. The point is that he did not claim to have witnessed all of these events. He did, however, clearly indicate that he believed them to be true. And yes, his testimony was indeed viewed as dishonorable by many veterans. Other veterans regarded his testimony as courageous and honorable. And, of course they had a right to be heard. Whether or not they had a right to Make Shit Up is another question. As to being asked to speak to Congressional representatives, that one is easy: > [@](#): > > …On April 22, 1971, John Kerry testified before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee during their hearings on the Vietnam war, and made reference to evidence brought forth by veterans at the WSI… Gonna go way out on a limb here and state my opinion that he testified willingly, and was not subpoenaed nor coerced in any way. If you do not like the term “invited”, you are free to substitute your own. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/94 "2013-12-16T18:39:27Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > He was invited to say what he had been told, by Winter Soldiers. > > If you ran a text search for the word “hearsay”, no wonder you didn’t find it. :rolleyes: > Try his opening statement. Page 1. > > :rolleyes: Is there a Black Monday sale on roll eyes? Dude, you need to chill. No, the assertion was that Kerry was asked to report hearsay, not that he actually did. We know he did. You need to cite one of the Congressmen asking him to do so. There’s nothing wrong with admitting you made a mistake. Like I said earlier, there might be a cite out there that validates elucidator’s claim, but yours doesn’t: > [@elucidator](#): > > He made statements to Congress because he was asked to do so. In essence, he was asked the question “What did you hear at the Winter Soldier testimony?” By implication, it is also fair to say he was asked if he believed it. > > Hence, he was pointedly asked to give “hearsay” testimony and give his opinion, which he did. We just need a cite that validates that. That’s all. I’m not claiming it isn’t true, I just am not aware that it is. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/95 "2013-12-16T18:41:48Z")
Guys, I think the OP specifically wanted to avoid the “Democrats did it too!” debate. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/96 "2013-12-16T18:42:48Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Guys, I think the OP specifically wanted to avoid the “Democrats did it too!” debate. Did he also want a pony? Besides, how can one discuss “fairness” without discussing both sides? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/97 "2013-12-16T18:42:54Z")
There are posters for whom that isn’t a debate topic, but an article of faith, fundamental to their views of all political discussions. And who can’t resist evangelizing us about it, unfortunately. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/98 "2013-12-16T18:46:11Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > There are posters for whom that isn’t a debate topic, but an article of faith, fundamental to their views of all political discussions. And who can’t resist evangelizing us about it, unfortunately. Yes, but we keep hoping you’ll change. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/99 "2013-12-16T18:47:14Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You need to cite one of the Congressmen asking him to do so. You need to see a copy of his letter inviting him to testify before you’ll believe it? As if he just showed up at the Capitol one day and asked to talk? And you think it’s \*my \*responsibility to provide that to you? And you wonder why you’re getting so many rolleyes? You haven’t had _enough_ of them. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/100 "2013-12-16T18:47:30Z")
> [@](#): > > Yes, but we keep hoping you’ll change. Ooooh, _snap_! Boy, you got him good with that one! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411.md?page=6)