# "Republicans," what's your take on John Kerry and Swiftboating? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 15, 2013, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411 "2013-12-15T21:57:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/101 "2013-12-16T18:51:04Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > (Sigh). Kerry attended Winter Soldier. There, he heard first hand testimony by veterans regarding things they had personally witnessed. If Kerry relates any of that to anyone else, his statements fall under the technical definition of “hearsay”: the witness is relating things he may or may not believe, but did not personally witness. > > Kerry was invited to speak before the Committee as a publicly acknowledged spokesperson for the Viet Nam Veterans Against The War. Was he? Reading the transcript Elvis was so gracious to provide, it looks like he was asked to testify as John Kerry, war veteran. The transcript start out thusly: > [@](#): > > The committee is continuing this morning its hearings on proposals relating to the ending of the war in Southeast Asia. This morning the committee will hear testimony from Mr. John Kerry and, if he has any associates, we will be glad to hear from them. I’m not getting the same vibe that you are from that. If he has any associates, doesn’t sound like something you’d say to someone invited to speak for others, especially when you ask for those others to speak, if they exist. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/102 "2013-12-16T18:53:20Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You need to see a copy of his letter inviting him to testify before you’ll believe it? As if he just showed up at the Capitol one day and asked to talk? And you think it’s \*my \*responsibility to provide that to you? > > And you wonder why you’re getting so many rolleyes? You haven’t had _enough_ of them. Sigh. No, we need to see something that invited him specifically to offer “hearsay” evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/103 "2013-12-16T18:53:49Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Guys, I think the OP specifically wanted to avoid the “Democrats did it too!” debate. This is a bit ironic, considering that the “Democrats did it too!” theme was introduced (by me) in direct response to you citing another example of RW campaign tactics which you felt was even worse than the Swiftboats. Is your position is that the thread should be linked to Swiftboats and other Republicans only? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/104 "2013-12-16T18:55:02Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You need to see a copy of his letter inviting him to testify before you’ll believe it? As if he just showed up at the Capitol one day and asked to talk? And you think it’s \*my \*responsibility to provide that to you? > > And you wonder why you’re getting so many rolleyes? You haven’t had _enough_ of them. Uhm, no. And since you continue to dance around the question instead of answering it, I’ll just assume you are unable to. Answer it, that is-- you’ve demonstrated a remarkable ability to dance. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/105 "2013-12-16T18:55:10Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Ooooh, _snap_! Boy, you got him good with that one! Thanks, ' **luci**! You see what I did? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/106 "2013-12-16T18:57:23Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > This is a bit ironic, considering that the “Democrats did it too!” theme was introduced (by me) in direct response to you citing another example of RW campaign tactics which you felt was even worse than the Swiftboats. I cited an example of a Republican doing it to another Republican. How, exactly, did that implicate the Democrats? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/107 "2013-12-16T18:58:14Z")
> [@](#): > > Thanks, 'luci! You see what I did? Yeah, you proved that Pee Wee Herman did not live it vain! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/108 "2013-12-16T19:00:25Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I cited an example of a Republican doing it to another Republican. How, exactly, did that implicate the Democrats? If I ask you whether it’s “fair” if Republicans do X, are you seriously thinking we can have a reasonable debate about that without referencing whether Democrats have done anything similar? Or, is there some rule book we can refer to instead? I’d say as soon as you introduce the concept of “fairness”, you open the door for comparisons. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/109 "2013-12-16T19:10:11Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > And since you continue to dance around the question instead of answering it, I’ll just assume you are unable to. I’m not dancing around it. I’m \*mocking \*it. Which is all it deserves. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/110 "2013-12-16T19:24:16Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If I ask you whether it’s “fair” if Republicans do X, are you seriously thinking we can have a reasonable debate about that without referencing whether Democrats have done anything similar? Or, is there some rule book we can refer to instead? > > I’d say as soon as you introduce the concept of “fairness”, you open the door for comparisons. You can’t judge the fairness of an act without reference to _tu quoques_? Pretend Ted Cruz wins the presidential nomination, and Democrats start making up stories about how he’s not constitutionally eligible to become President. Will that be “fair” because Republicans did it to Obama? Or will it still be a bullshit tactic? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/111 "2013-12-16T19:31:41Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I’m not dancing around it. I’m \*mocking \*it. Which is all it deserves. Whatever - what you’re not doing is answering it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/112 "2013-12-16T19:35:42Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You can’t judge the fairness of an act without reference to _tu quoques_? No, you can’t. Not without a “fairness” rule book. Got one? > [@](#): > > Pretend Ted Cruz wins the presidential nomination, and Democrats start making up stories about how he’s not constitutionally eligible to become President. Will that be “fair” because Republicans did it to Obama? Or will it still be a bullshit tactic? Yep, it would be fair. You offer a false dichotomy-- this is politics, not the Boy Scouts. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/113 "2013-12-16T19:37:47Z")
Must have been one of those days when Congressional Committees put out signs saying “Walk Ins Welcome!” and Kerry to a look and said “Hey, here’s my chance, I can walk in and testify and then claim they asked me to! Yowzuh!”. Really, guys, WTF? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/114 "2013-12-16T19:39:19Z")
Sure, just like it’s unfair to Bush for lying us into a war that cost hundreds of thousands of lives and cost hundreds of billions of dollars, because Obama said you could keep your own doctor too. Exactly the same thing, lies are lies, they both do it, therefore you score a point. Happy now? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/115 "2013-12-16T19:40:57Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I cited an example of a Republican doing it to another Republican. How, exactly, did that implicate the Democrats? That was not my claim. Please reread my post (including the last paragraph.) ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/116 "2013-12-16T19:51:03Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Must have been one of those days when Congressional Committees put out signs saying “Walk Ins Welcome!” and Kerry to a look and said “Hey, here’s my chance, I can walk in and testify and then claim they asked me to! Yowzuh!”. > > Really, guys, WTF? The purpose of the Fullbright Hearings was, in the words of Sen. Fullbright himself: > [@](#): > > The purpose of these hearings is to develop the best advice and greater public understanding of the policy alternatives available and positive congressional action to end American participation in the war. Kerry spoke at length about ending the war, troop withdrawals, implications for South Vietnam, and so forth, which was well within the scope of the hearings. Before that, though, he read a prepared statement about the Winter Soldier Investigation, and what participants in it had reported about service in Vietnam. It’s reasonable to suggest that the conditions that American soldiers found themselves in should be part of a discussion about ending the conflict. But, it’s also reasonable to note that Kerry wasn’t, in fact, specifically asked (at least on the record) to testify about the Winter Soldier Investigation, or what soldiers other than himself had witnessed. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/117 "2013-12-16T20:01:41Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Must have been one of those days when Congressional Committees put out signs saying “Walk Ins Welcome!” and Kerry to a look and said “Hey, here’s my chance, I can walk in and testify and then claim they asked me to! Yowzuh!”. > > Really, guys, WTF? You didn’t just move the goalpost there. You took the goalpost down and put up a volleyball net. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/118 "2013-12-16T20:05:59Z")
He was invited as a spokesman for Vietnam Veterans Against the War. A _representative_. Which means he was there to speak for others as well as himself. Capisce? Now, what the fuck \*else \*do you think the Senators should have expected him to talk about than about what vets knew and experienced about the war, and how that shaped their views about how to get the fuck out of it? [Here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AFulbright_Hearing/sb): > [@](#): > > Testimony by John Kerry (Representative of Vietnam Veterans Against the War) on the necessity of immediate and unilateral withdrawal based on Vietnam veterans’ personal experiences. As \*\*elucidator \*\*so succinctly and aptly puts it: Really, guys, WTF? Or, to repeat myself: Sheesh. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/119 "2013-12-16T20:47:48Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Shouldn’t you be bothered about the truth of the claims themselves? Why are you accepting them as true without question? Good to see you’re still incapable of reading for comprehension without making assumptions. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/120 "2013-12-16T20:53:40Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > He was invited as a spokesman for Vietnam Veterans Against the War. A _representative_. Which means he was there to speak for others as well as himself. Capisce? > > Now, what the fuck \*else \*do you think the Senators should have expected him to talk about than about what vets knew and experienced about the war, and how that shaped their views about how to get the fuck out of it? > > [Here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AFulbright_Hearing/sb): > > As \*\*elucidator \*\*so succinctly and aptly puts it: Really, guys, WTF? > Or, to repeat myself: Sheesh. :rolleyes: Sheesh is right. It took you 10 posts of moaning because you couldn’t accept that your first cite was inadequate. Sheesh! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411.md?page=7)