# "Republicans," what's your take on John Kerry and Swiftboating? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 15, 2013, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411 "2013-12-15T21:57:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/161 "2013-12-17T16:44:44Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > No. Most of their message was general statements about Kerry: Unfit to lead, dishonest, etc. But the specifics focused mostly on his testimony and statements after the war. They did question some of his actions in the war, but that wasn’t the primary focus because it wasn’t what they were angry about. Again, how do you know that? It’s not at all obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/162 "2013-12-17T16:45:44Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Remember Hugh Thompson? The helicopter pilot who saved innocent lives at My Lai by threatening to open fire on American troops? Think he was widely admired in the ranks for his courage? Think again. I hadn’t heard of him, but I just read his wiki page. Yeah. He’s a hero. Both Kerry and Thompson threw away medals. Both testified in front of congress. But only Thompson actually saw something wrong happening in front of him and did something about it. Kerry was just repeating rumors. Yes, both those things will invoke some ill will from certain members of the military, but that’s about where the similarity between them ends. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/163 "2013-12-17T16:49:01Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Remember Hugh Thompson? The helicopter pilot who saved innocent lives at My Lai by threatening to open fire on American troops? Think he was widely admired in the ranks for his courage? Think again. Which goes to show that most people have no idea what honor actually is. You dishonor the military by committing the sort of atrocities Kerry spoke about, _not_ by exposing them. If defending the honor of the military, police, or anything else means hiding misconduct and shaming those with the courage to expose or put a stop to it, then there’s not actually anything worth protecting about it. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/164 "2013-12-17T16:50:01Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Again, how do you know that? It’s not at all obvious. Because that’s what they said? I’ve posted the quote from his commander. The ads they ran were focused on his testimony mostly. What do you think got the swift boat veterans so riled up at Kerry? I didn’t think the cause of their anger was in dispute. It wasn’t a secret. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/165 "2013-12-17T16:52:31Z")
Was he lying? Were they lying, the guys who testified at the Winter Soldier meeting? None of this shit ever happened? Should they have shut up about it, not disturb our illusions with ugly truth? Cover up the pile of innocent dead with a flag? A really _big_ flag. What, exactly, do you think he should have done? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/166 "2013-12-17T16:53:44Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Which goes to show that most people have no idea what honor actually is. You dishonor the military by committing the sort of atrocities Kerry spoke about, _not_ by exposing them. If defending the honor of the military, police, or anything else means hiding misconduct and shaming those with the courage to expose or put a stop to it, then there’s not actually anything worth protecting about it. Word. Preach it. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/167 "2013-12-17T16:55:53Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > But the specifics focused mostly on his testimony and statements after the war. Unfortunately, there’s a [historical record](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swift_Vets_and_POWs_for_Truth), easily retrievable. > [@](#): > > First television advertisement… was a collage of short clips of 13 SBVT members, many who stated they “served with John Kerry” or had direct contact with Kerry during his service in Vietnam. The veterans appearing in the ad said Kerry was dishonest, unreliable, unfit to lead, and had dishonored his country and fellow veterans… > > Book…criticized Kerry’s judgment in battle, his truthfulness, his entitlement to certain medals, and his later anti-war activities… > > Second television advertisement…The SBVT advertisement alternated clips of Kerry’s summary of these statements with charges from Vietnam veterans, particularly former POWs, that Kerry’s “accusations” had demoralized and “betrayed” soldiers in Vietnam… > > Third television advertisement…attacking Kerry’s past statements that he was in Cambodia on Christmas Eve, 1968… > > Fourth television advertisement…The advertisement described Kerry as a man who “renounced his country’s symbols,” a reference to a Vietnam War protest where Kerry threw war decorations over the fence of the U.S. Capitol building Yes, there was some stuff in their campaign of lies about Kerry’s postwar activities. But the majority was indeed about his service itself. And it is well-established that it was an orchestrated campaign of factual lies with an obvious goal, not merely fact-irrelevant opinionating about the honor of denouncing a war that, by that time, was generally thought by the public to be deeply immoral in both intent and conduct. The latter would have been defensible (though weakly) argumentation, the former was not, but the former was what dominated the campaign. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/168 "2013-12-17T16:56:50Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > … some ill will from certain members of the military… “_Some_ ill will”? My, what an artful bit of wordplay! Krakatoa was loud. Scarlett Johannson is kinda hot. There was some ill will. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/169 "2013-12-17T16:57:10Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Because that’s what they said? I’ve posted the quote from his commander. The ads they ran were focused on his testimony mostly. > > What do you think got the swift boat veterans so riled up at Kerry? I didn’t think the cause of their anger was in dispute. It wasn’t a secret. I remember the ads pretty well. I don’t agree with the part of your post I’ve underlined above. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/170 "2013-12-17T17:01:35Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Because that’s what they said? I’ve posted the quote from his commander. The ads they ran were focused on his testimony mostly. His commander wasn’t the lead Swifty. Corsi and a few others were. > [@](#): > > What do you think got the swift boat veterans so riled up at Kerry? I didn’t think the cause of their anger was in dispute. It wasn’t a secret. I don’t think that really matters. What matters is what the campaign was about. It’s not at all clear that it was mostly about his post-war activity. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/171 "2013-12-17T17:02:46Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Kerry was just repeating rumors. Wrong. He was repeating what he had been told \*by the participants themselves \*- who had then chosen him as their _spokesman_. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/172 "2013-12-17T17:03:02Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > No. Most of their message was general statements about Kerry: Unfit to lead, dishonest, etc. But the specifics focused mostly on his testimony and statements after the war. They did question some of his actions in the war, but that wasn’t the primary focus because it wasn’t what they were angry about. This is absurdly false. In addition to the evidence refuting it that others have posted, it doesn’t fit at all with those purple heart bandaids that were the hit of the Republican convention that year. So the purple heart bandaid represents… his testimony before congress? ETA, it was this issue that made me stop listening to NPR. Specifically, they described Kerry’s service in Viet Nam as “controversial.”. His post war acts had nothing to do with the Swift boating campaign. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/173 "2013-12-17T17:03:07Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Unfortunately, there’s a [historical record](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swift_Vets_and_POWs_for_Truth), easily retrievable.Yes, there was some stuff in their campaign of lies about Kerry’s postwar activities. But the majority was indeed about his service itself. And it is well-established that it was an orchestrated campaign of factual lies with an obvious goal, not merely fact-irrelevant opinionating about the honor of denouncing a war that, by that time, was generally thought by the public to be deeply immoral in both intent and conduct. The latter would have been defensible (though weakly) argumentation, the former was not, but the former was what dominated the campaign. Although my memory of the election agrees with you, your source suggests that (with the exception of the Cambodian christmas) the focus of the ads really was on his post-war activities. Ads 2 and 4 sounds like they’re almost entirely post-war. Ad 1 seems fairly generic (I know him and he’s a bad guy). Only Ad 3 is focused on during war activities (Cambodia). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/174 "2013-12-17T17:20:08Z")
I think, but can’t be sure, that this is the [complete set of ads](http://www.swiftvets.com/index.php?topic=Ads). Anyone want to view them and report back? I’ll decline that “privilege”. I don’t know if we have any way of determining how many times each ad was run, but that would be necessary, too, in order to determine what their “primary focus” was. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/175 "2013-12-17T17:32:59Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Politicians aren’t kids. Politics is the art of gaining and maintaining power. I wish our political atmosphere was more civil, but short of making certain behaviors illegal, I don’t see any way of changing it. So, if one side does X, then it should expect the other side to do X as well. But we’re not talking about whether or not fairness is enforceable. We’re talking about whether it’s measurable. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/176 "2013-12-17T17:44:13Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > But we’re not talking about whether or not fairness is enforceable. We’re talking about whether it’s measurable. OK. How do you measure it? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/177 "2013-12-17T18:01:55Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > The primary complaint of the Swift Boat Veterans was Kerry’s behavior after the war. That was their gripe. They weren’t lying about that. Kerry was responsible for his actions which really angered many vets. So basically, the SBVs argued on two main points: 1. Kerry’s testimony after the war about the atrocities his comrades had witnessed were wrong, dishonest, and dishonorable 2. The record of actions leading up to Kerry winning medals was false and he did not deserve those medals; he was not the war hero his history would claim him to be You know what? Even assuming you’re right, we _know_ that this is a right-wing front group. And we know _exactly_ which of those two claims is likely to have more impact on the average modern citizen (especially given the massive change in perspective with regards to war protesters, of Vietnam in particular) and which, as a result, got considerably more play by the right wing. So excuse me if I consider all this handwaving about the Swiftboaters to be a _completely pointless exercise_. It doesn’t _matter_ that most of what they said had to do with Kerry’s postwar record. That wasn’t the stuff that stuck. That wasn’t what _mattered_. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/178 "2013-12-17T18:07:08Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > Although my memory of the election agrees with you, your source suggests that (with the exception of the Cambodian christmas) the focus of the ads really was on his post-war activities. Ads 2 and 4 sounds like they’re almost entirely post-war. Ad 1 seems fairly generic (I know him and he’s a bad guy). Only Ad 3 is focused on during war activities (Cambodia). No kidding! I think you need to read your cites before posting them, **Elvis** , since that cite backs up my claim rather than disputing it. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/179 "2013-12-17T18:11:33Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Even assuming you’re right, we _know_ that this is a right-wing front group. What’s this mean, exactly? Are you disputing that many actual veterans from Vietnam were in the group? That they didn’t like Kerry very much? Sure, Republicans were happy to pay for the ads giving these guys a microphone, but this wasn’t a “front group” unless you define that very loosely. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411/180 "2013-12-17T18:14:46Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > Although my memory of the election agrees with you, your source suggests that (with the exception of the Cambodian christmas) the focus of the ads really was on his post-war activities. Ads 2 and 4 sounds like they’re almost entirely post-war. Ad 1 seems fairly generic (I know him and he’s a bad guy). Only Ad 3 is focused on during war activities (Cambodia). Ad 1 was about his service _entirely_. And you omitted the book, which also was mostly about his service. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republicans-whats-your-take-on-john-kerry-and-swiftboating/676411.md?page=10)