# Required Reading **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 17, 2009, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/required-reading/510432 "2009-09-17T10:08:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/required-reading/510432/81 "2009-09-18T22:58:01Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I have no interest in viewing velvet Elvis’s. Not depriving myself of anything. > There is nothing rediculous about a child feeling uncomfortable with sexually explicit material. There is however, something disturbing about adults who insist on imposing this material on a child. > Because it was sexually explicit and the child was uncomfortable with it. No one is imposing it. She can opt out of the course. It’s totally voluntary. I mean, you don’t get to sign up for ROTC and then opt out because militaristic stuff makes me uncomfortable; you don’t get to sign up for swim class and then demand an exemption from swimming because you have a water phobia; you can’t join the choir and then claim social anxiety makes it impossible for you to sing in public. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/required-reading/510432/82 "2009-09-18T23:18:50Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Well thats mature So is stamping your feet and insisting she’s a child. This is a girl who voluntarily enrolled in a college prep class to demonstrate that her intellect is already on a college level. > [@MandaJo](#): > > No one is imposing it. She can opt out of the course. It’s totally voluntary. > > I mean, you don’t get to sign up for ROTC and then opt out because militaristic stuff makes me uncomfortable; you don’t get to sign up for swim class and then demand an exemption from swimming because you have a water phobia; you can’t join the choir and then claim social anxiety makes it impossible for you to sing in public. Exactly. She signed up to prove that she operates on a college level and has ended up proving the exact opposite. That’s perfectly fine but she should either drop the course or accept the F. I don’t know what she hopes to accomplish by whining about it, except maybe some media attention and admittance to a close-minded school that applauds her decision. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/required-reading/510432/83 "2009-09-18T23:42:55Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > So is stamping your feet and insisting she’s a child. This is a girl who voluntarily enrolled in a college prep class to demonstrate that her intellect is already on a college level. I presented the fact that she is a child. Stamping one’s foot is to ignore facts in place of personal feeling. And intellect is not related to, or is a function of, sexual maturity. I’ve met 10 year olds who were intellectually superior to most adults. They had above average IQ’s. That does not remove them from childhood. > [@Cisco](#): > > Exactly. She signed up to prove that she operates on a college level and has ended up proving the exact opposite. That’s perfectly fine but she should either drop the course or accept the F. I don’t know what she hopes to accomplish by whining about it, except maybe some media attention and admittance to a close-minded school that applauds her decision. This was a course taught to high school students, not a course that a high school student was taking in college. It should be age appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/required-reading/510432/84 "2009-09-19T00:04:02Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If I were a Dean I would want a student who was mature enough to reject sexually explicit material that she (as a child) did not wish to read. College level courses in high school are not an excuse to ignore the age of the children involved. And there are Deans at some schools who would agree with you, and would also agree the same about reading about evolution or massacres during the Crusades and a host of other things that some would rather not read about. A High School Senior is not a nine year old. And a person is not magically immature before their 18th birthday and mature the day after. But hey, I’m a parent who encouraged his 15 year old to take figure drawing over Summer at the Art Institute knowing that it would include nudes. I think teens can handle sexual content if it is approached in a mature manner. Though tell me, would allow her to opt out of an art class that included nudes or Zeus’s rape of Leda? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/required-reading/510432/85 "2009-09-19T00:12:07Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I presented the fact that she is a child. Stamping one’s foot is to ignore facts in place of personal feeling. And intellect is not related to, or is a function of, sexual maturity. I’ve met 10 year olds who were intellectually superior to most adults. They had above average IQ’s. That does not remove them from childhood. > > This was a course taught to high school students, not a course that a high school student was taking in college. It should be age appropriate. Why? I can understand saying that the school needs to offer alternatives that are age-appropriate by even the most conservative students–students, as has been pointed out, have to go to school. But they don’t have to take IB courses. So why should those classes offer only “age-appropriate” materials? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/required-reading/510432/86 "2009-09-19T00:24:08Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > And there are Deans at some schools who would agree with you, and would also agree the same about reading about evolution or massacres during the Crusades and a host of other things that some would rather not read about. You’re trying to redirect this away from the subject of age appropriate material. > [@DSeid](#): > > A High School Senior is not a nine year old. And a person is not magically immature before their 18th birthday and mature the day after. Using the same argument, a high school senior is not a mature adult upon reaching 18. We set arbitrary time lines to provide a buffer. > [@DSeid](#): > > But hey, I’m a parent who encouraged his 15 year old to take figure drawing over Summer at the Art Institute knowing that it would include nudes. I think teens can handle sexual content if it is approached in a mature manner. > > Though tell me, would allow her to opt out of an art class that included nudes or Zeus’s rape of Leda? Your example doesn’t involve a school. If your child objected to the course you would find yourself on the wrong end of child services. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/required-reading/510432/87 "2009-09-19T00:32:20Z")
> [@villa](#): > > You have her phone number? 🙂 Just so you know, this completely cracked me up. ---
**Author:** ![KarenMcAllister](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KarenMcAllister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarenMcAllister)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/required-reading/510432/88 "2009-09-19T00:43:20Z")
Thanks for linking to my [blog post](http://blogs.tampabay.com/talk/2009/09/book-too-sexually-graphic-for-teen-girl-should-she-read-be-required-to-read-it.html); lots of interesting discussion here about this whole topic. The St. Petersburg Times reported today that the school will allow Mari to read another book, although we don’t know yet which one. Any ideas for her? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/required-reading/510432/89 "2009-09-19T00:50:51Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Why? I can understand saying that the school needs to offer alternatives that are age-appropriate by even the most conservative students–students, as has been pointed out, have to go to school. But they don’t have to take IB courses. So why should those classes offer only “age-appropriate” materials? Because the school would be discriminating againts students who wish to excel. Consider a film class that uses A Clockwork Orange as a required movie critique. It’s a movie with iconic references that show up in cartoons like the Simpsons. It’s not appropriate IMO for a high school class yet I’m sure many kids have seen it and their heads didn’t explode. Don’t interpret my view of what’s appropriate in this situation because I haven’t made one beyond the observation that the material discussed is, in fact, sexually explicit. My position here is that we have drawn a line that delineates child from adult. It doesn’t mean one is either depending on the age. What it means is that adults should defer to the age so as to protect those who wish to be protected. You do not ask a child to forward their sexual maturity. This is something that happens when it happens. I know woman who married as a virgin. I found out many years later that her sister was involved with an adult neighbor long before she turned 16. I understand that you feel a 16 year old should be up to this book. I’m not disagreeing with you. However, I would consider it in the arena of literature to be sought out and not forced upon. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/required-reading/510432/90 "2009-09-19T00:54:06Z")
> [@KarenMcAllister](#): > > Thanks for linking to my [blog post](http://blogs.tampabay.com/talk/2009/09/book-too-sexually-graphic-for-teen-girl-should-she-read-be-required-to-read-it.html); lots of interesting discussion here about this whole topic. The St. Petersburg Times reported today that the school will allow Mari to read another book, although we don’t know yet which one. > Any ideas for her? As a sidenote to this I meant to point out that none of my college literature books had anything graphic like this in it and it was anything but a conservative school. They were showing the movie Deep Throat as an after hours movie. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/required-reading/510432/91 "2009-09-19T01:16:13Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Because the school would be discriminating againts students who wish to excel. Consider a film class that uses A Clockwork Orange as a required movie critique. It’s a movie with iconic references that show up in cartoons like the Simpsons. It’s not appropriate IMO for a high school class yet I’m sure many kids have seen it and their heads didn’t explode. > > Don’t interpret my view of what’s appropriate in this situation because I haven’t made one beyond the observation that the material discussed is, in fact, sexually explicit. My position here is that we have drawn a line that delineates child from adult. It doesn’t mean one is either depending on the age. What it means is that adults should defer to the age so as to protect those who wish to be protected. You do not ask a child to forward their sexual maturity. This is something that happens when it happens. I know woman who married as a virgin. I found out many years later that her sister was involved with an adult neighbor long before she turned 16. > > I understand that you feel a 16 year old should be up to this book. I’m not disagreeing with you. However, I would consider it in the arena of literature to be sought out and not forced upon. But they aren’t “forced”: they can take another, regular, English class. One advanced course more or less won’t make or break a college resume, and “Why I left the IB program” could be a great college essay. I mean, when my school schedules AP Euro up against AP Physics, meaning no one can take both, are we discriminating against those who “wish to excel”? When we require students in the musical to come to practice 20 hours a week, effectively excluding those that have jobs, are we discriminating against those who “wish to excel”? I really don’t see how this is any different–schools aren’t obligated to make all available opportunities equally palatable for everyone. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/required-reading/510432/92 "2009-09-19T01:18:12Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Have you read the book? I ask this purely as a rhetorical question. I’ll be shocked if you have. Once again, I can really reccomend this author. He’s very good. Nice to see something Japanese translated that’s modern, well written, and not manga. … still fucked up, but that’s Japan. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/required-reading/510432/93 "2009-09-19T01:25:44Z")
> [@Spectralist](#): > > They’re _high school_ students. They’re _adults_. Where did you get that idea? The vast majority of high school students are NOT adults. ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/required-reading/510432/94 "2009-09-19T01:38:56Z")
It isn’t the age of the student that matters, it is the class level. A 10-year-old genius could skip to being a senior in high school, but that doesn’t mean high school seniors should only read material appropriate for 10-year-olds. In this case, it is a senior class of advanced students about to go to college. They should be able to handle this material. I don’t think the same book would be appropriate for a class of high school freshmen. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/required-reading/510432/95 "2009-09-19T02:12:56Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I have no interest in viewing velvet Elvis’s. Not depriving myself of anything. I admit it’s not going to go far as a factual argument, but when it comes to appreciating art and life, I don’t think “Eww, gross!” is going to get us very far. that’s all I’m saying. > [@](#): > > There is nothing rediculous about a child feeling uncomfortable with sexually explicit material. I acknowledged this earlier. > [@](#): > > There is however, something disturbing about adults who insist on imposing this material on a child. Having read the thing in question - not the racy first chapter, the actual work itself - I don’t agree. > [@](#): > > Because it was sexually explicit and the child was uncomfortable with it. And I thought Potter Stewart was vague! > [@](#): > > I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material [hardcore pornography] I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description, and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it Your standard is _far_ superior. “I know pornography when it makes other people uncomfortable.” Porn’s usually defined by the intent to titillate. I assure you this book, which in general is about, I don’t know, the entirety of postwar Japan, is not intended to arouse. > [@KarenMcAllister](#): > > Thanks for linking to my [blog post](http://blogs.tampabay.com/talk/2009/09/book-too-sexually-graphic-for-teen-girl-should-she-read-be-required-to-read-it.html); lots of interesting discussion here about this whole topic. The St. Petersburg Times reported today that the school will allow Mari to read another book, although we don’t know yet which one. > Any ideas for her? I suggested a few upthread. 😉 > [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Once again, I can really reccomend this author. He’s very good. Nice to see something Japanese translated that’s modern, well written, and not manga. Manga aside, yes. I haven’t read anything else he’s done, but I was very impressed, and I’d put Wind-Up Bird Chronicle in the list of the top ten books I’ve read. > [@Magiver](#): > > As a sidenote to this I meant to point out that none of my college literature books had anything graphic like this in it and it was anything but a conservative school. They were showing the movie Deep Throat as an after hours movie. Different times and different schools. I read _The Bluest Eye_ in high school - I don’t remember how graphic it is, but there’s definitely sex in there. I read _Lolita_ in college and I think it’s incredible. Just a year or two ago my high school age brother was assigned _Lucky_ by Alice Sebold. He didn’t read it, but my mother did and she just called it “horrible,” and “the most fucked up inappropriate book I ever read and worthless besides.” It’s about Sebold’s own rape in college. Of course, whether or not it’s explicit or inappropriate is all in the details.. ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/required-reading/510432/96 "2009-09-19T02:24:18Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > In any case, if we start setting a precedent that a student can choose not to read a book because she’s offended by the sexuality in it, then students can claim to be offended by all sorts of things, just to get out of reading a book they find boring. Students could claim to be viciously phobic of Russian women and therefore should be exempted from reading _Anna Karenina_ - who’s to say that their phobia of Russian women is less psychologically-jarring than someone else’s phobia of sexuality. Have you read Connie Willis’s short story “_Much Ado About [Censored]_” It’s a hoot. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/required-reading/510432/97 "2009-09-19T02:31:09Z")
The book I mentioned earlier wasn’t Lucky, it was [Breath, Eyes, Memory](http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/breatheyes/summary.html). ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/required-reading/510432/98 "2009-09-19T03:54:01Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > … Consider a film class that uses A Clockwork Orange as a required movie critique. It’s a movie with iconic references that show up in cartoons like the Simpsons. It’s not appropriate IMO for a high school class yet I’m sure many kids have seen it and their heads didn’t explode… Just so you know my current college freshman watched _A Clockwork Orange_ as part of a High School class. And no, I am not trying to “redirect from the question of age appropriate material”. I am discussing the very direct issue that I raised in my very first post in this thread: this is a HS class designed to be college level, designed to give these students a chance to prove that they can, already, rise to college level thought processes. True 'nuff that some 21 year olds cannot do that, hell, some 50 year olds can’t\*, but this class is the chance to show that _they can handle difficult material_, material that challenges them. That they can approach these challenges with an open mind and come to independent judgments that they can support. Someone whose approach to material that on a superficial perusal (or by someone else’s word) is something that (s)he disagrees with is to refuse to even expose him or herself to it at all, fails that test. \*The same kid who took figure drawing was part of our family vacation with the grandparents to a Club Med in the Dominican Republic when he was eleven. A Club Med frequented by many from France which meant lots of topless bathing on the beach. The eleven year old was nonplussed, really more interested in his sand castles (no, he’s not gay, he is now a 23 year old bringing his girlfriend home to meet the folks from where he currently lives in Japan); Sixty-something Grandpa was tongue out and saying (loudly) “Boy look at those ones!” ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/required-reading/510432/99 "2009-09-19T04:13:54Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > If I was an admissions dean I would be more interested in selecting tan individual who has adequate grades and tests scores but demonstrates that (s)he is intellectually curious than an immature individual who expresses a desire to hide from material (s)he did not like even if the GPA and test scores of the latter individual were far superior. Personally I think it takes big brass balls for a student to stand up to the administration like she did. I don’t really agree with her stance but I think it took some courage and it’s something she thought about. In the interest of promoting a diverse environment (which lots of colleges want to do these days) I might want her at my school. Besides, who is to say she doesn’t display intellectual curiosity in other areas of the curriculum? Just because other students jumped through the hoops their instructors told them to doesn’t make them any more curious. Odesio PS: I’m not bagging on those who jumped through the hoops. I certainly jumped through my fair share. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/required-reading/510432/100 "2009-09-19T04:14:46Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > She’s a child. No, she’s not. And she’s not an adult either. She’s a teenager. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/required-reading/510432.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/required-reading/510432.md?page=6)