# Rereading Ice and Fire **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 21, 2005, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rereading-ice-and-fire/327183 "2005-10-21T01:52:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![lno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a8b319/32.png) [@lno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lno)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2005, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rereading-ice-and-fire/327183/21 "2005-10-21T19:10:23Z")
> [@Amok](#): > > But this time the date has been confirmed by Martin and the publisher, so it’s solid. In fact, the book is already out in the UK. And has been for some time - I pre-ordered it from Amazon UK and it arrived yesterday here in the heartland of North America. > [@Otanx](#): > > I can’t see Jon Snow leaving the wall now that he is Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch. He is always concerned about his honor, and showing that a bastard has honor. He will watch from the wall, protecting the realm no matter what happens. I see this being an issue, but I also can see the Night’s Watch being abolished / commandeered by Stannis, and Jon being released from his vows. Or maybe the Others just massacre everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Amok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f17d59/32.png) [@Amok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amok)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2005, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rereading-ice-and-fire/327183/22 "2005-10-21T19:25:16Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > I remember Ned’s dream about the tower and how only two of the seven made it out alive against the three Kingsguard. However, I don’t recall Lyanna having been in the tower. Is it implied, or did I just totally miss it? Reagar’s orders would explain why three of the Kingsguard were far away instead of, you know, guarding the king. You must have missed it. I don’t remember if it’s in with his dream, but it’s definitely stated in Game of Thrones that Ned found Lyanna in the Tower of Joy. She was dying, from what it’s never said, but he says something about a “bloody bed” or a “bed of blood” (I don’t remember which), which could imply pregnancy. Anyways, I missed the whole thing about Lyanna (probably) being Jon’s mother on my first read through the series, and I imagine a lot of readers do the same, but the theory seems to be pretty wide spread on the internet, and makes a lot of sense. I can’t help wondering if Martin is gonna throw us a curveball here. ---
**Author:** ![lno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a8b319/32.png) [@lno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lno)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2005, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rereading-ice-and-fire/327183/23 "2005-10-21T19:37:05Z")
> [@Amok](#): > > Anyways, I missed the whole thing about Lyanna (probably) being Jon’s mother on my first read through the series, and I imagine a lot of readers do the same, but the theory seems to be pretty wide spread on the internet, and makes a lot of sense. I can’t help wondering if Martin is gonna throw us a curveball here. Here’s a very detailed [analysis](http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/mlarchives/faq/jon.html) of Jon’s parentage including quotes and page references. The [FAQ](http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/mlarchives/faq/) is an invaluable resource for a number of questions. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2005, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rereading-ice-and-fire/327183/24 "2005-10-21T19:55:16Z")
Can’t wait for the book! I used to think that Jon Snow was going to marry Dany, but that was when I thought he was going to forsake the Wall and take over his dead father’s/brother’s lands when Stanis offered them. Now though Jon is bound to the Wall isn’t he? Unless the Wall completely falls and the watch are thrown back I suppose. The interesting thing will be to see how magic coming back to the world will effect people. Its already starting to make itself felt. What will happen with The Others? There are hints (IIRC) of the last time they did a full scale invasion and mankind barely held on. Something along those lines happen again? Who will be the next major character to die? Martin seems to take a perverse pleasure in wacking the characters I like. 😛 -XT ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2005, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rereading-ice-and-fire/327183/25 "2005-10-21T19:56:29Z")
BTW, if Jon was Rhaegar Targaryen’s son wouldn’t he have the purple eyes? -XT ---
**Author:** ![lno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a8b319/32.png) [@lno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lno)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2005, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rereading-ice-and-fire/327183/26 "2005-10-21T20:11:06Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > BTW, if Jon was Rhaegar Targaryen’s son wouldn’t he have the purple eyes? [Wikipedia’s comment](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_Targaryen): > [@](#): > > Most Targaryens have silvery-white hair and purple eyes. However, these traits can be lost when a Targaryen mixes with another bloodlines. For example, some of the offspring of Daeron II and the Dornish princess Myriah Martell had brown hair, like Baelor Breakspear and his son Valarr. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2005, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rereading-ice-and-fire/327183/27 "2005-10-21T20:17:02Z")
Ah, ok. I wondered about that…that was the main reason I dismissed it to myself (I wasn’t aware it was a general theory). Thanks Ino. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Busy\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@Busy\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Busy_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2005, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rereading-ice-and-fire/327183/28 "2005-10-21T20:25:11Z")
Here’s a small thing that I was wondering about: In book III Roose Bolton tells Jaime that Arya Stark is still alive. Its when Jaime and Brienne have been captured by the Bloody Mummers and returned to Harrenhall. With hindsight, is this evidence that Bolton was in league with Tywin Lannister at this point, and knew about the plans to wed a false Arya to his bastard son? Reason I ask is that I don’t think that there is anyway he could actually know that the real Arya is still alive. I could be wrong about this, but it seems like an extremely subtle hint that Bolton was about to betray Robb Stark. I’ve nearly finished “A feast for crows”. Lips sealed. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Amok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f17d59/32.png) [@Amok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amok)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2005, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rereading-ice-and-fire/327183/29 "2005-10-21T21:07:13Z")
> [@Myler Keogh](#): > > Here’s a small thing that I was wondering about: In book III Roose Bolton tells Jaime that Arya Stark is still alive. Its when Jaime and Brienne have been captured by the Bloody Mummers and returned to Harrenhall. With hindsight, is this evidence that Bolton was in league with Tywin Lannister at this point, and knew about the plans to wed a false Arya to his bastard son? Most likely, yes. There’s no way he could have known that the real Arya was still alive (especially considering that she had been in Harrenhal and he hadn’t recognized her), and there’s nothing else that really makes sense. Not to mention that Bolton releases Jaime himself, and Tywin mentions to Jaime later that Bolton had sent word to expect him. ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2005, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rereading-ice-and-fire/327183/30 "2005-10-21T22:56:58Z")
> [@](#): > > 1. The two strangers Arya spied upon in the bowels of the Red Keep - the bejewled man and the “magician” - were Magister Illyrio and Varys. Those two are two of the most important actors behind the scenes of the sory: they organized the rebirth of the dragons, and they will do whatever possible to keep the nation strong, even if under Lannister rule. I’m certain that I’ve read a quote from GRRM that confirms this as true. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2005, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rereading-ice-and-fire/327183/31 "2005-10-22T01:05:48Z")
The topic of when exactly Roose Bolton, Walder Frey and Tywin Lannister sealed the deal on the betrayal of the Starks has been debated a great deal at Ran’s board. The common conclusion is that it happened earlier than most people think. There’s a scene in one of Arya’s chapters in _A Clash of Kings_ where one of the Frey children brags about being part of an arranged marriage to a princess. This is the same one who was promised in marriage to Arya during the negotiations between Catelyn and Walder in _A Game of Thrones_. Later on, he says that the marriage has been broken off, which presumably means that the Freys have now decided to break their alliance to the Starks and throw in with the Lannisters. All of that happens before the ending of _A Clash of Kings_. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2005, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rereading-ice-and-fire/327183/32 "2005-10-22T07:03:39Z")
> [@Rysto](#): > > I’m certain that I’ve read a quote from GRRM that confirms this as true. Then why was Illyrio helping Dany and her brother? Why not just kill them and be done with it? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2005, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rereading-ice-and-fire/327183/33 "2005-10-22T07:53:14Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Then why was Illyrio helping Dany and her brother? Why not just kill them and be done with it? > > -Joe Because they want to restore the Tragaryens - and more important, they want dragons back in Westeros, in order to counter the power of the Ice. They want Dany to seize control of as strong a nation as possible. Which means they’ll probably organize a palace coup instead of a Aegon-styled Conquest. Look for Varys undermining Cersei’s popularity (and note how he helped remove Tyrion from the scene without killing him - he needs him for later, perhaps as an advisor for Dany). ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2005, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rereading-ice-and-fire/327183/34 "2005-10-22T16:36:22Z")
Incidentally, here’s something funny I noticed: while the story is supposedly set in a version of 15th century England, much of the Seven Kingdoms’ flora and fauna is actually North American in origin. Corn, turkeys, pumpkins - it’s like a medieval Pennsylvania. ---
**Author:** ![FlyingDragonFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c89c15/32.png) [@FlyingDragonFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingDragonFan)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2005, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rereading-ice-and-fire/327183/35 "2005-10-22T17:00:24Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Incidentally, here’s something funny I noticed: while the story is supposedly set in a version of 15th century England, much of the Seven Kingdoms’ flora and fauna is actually North American in origin. Corn, turkeys, pumpkins - it’s like a medieval Pennsylvania. That’s true. I guess I was too distracted by the wights and magicians and dragons to notice. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rereading-ice-and-fire/327183/36 "2005-10-23T10:59:19Z")
> [@FlyingDragonFan](#): > > That’s true. I guess I was too distracted by the wights and magicians and dragons to notice. 😉 Yeah, there’s that. Here’s another question: do you think the the Ironmen’s Drowned God is actually Cthulhu? “That which is dead may never die” sounds pretty Lovecraftian to me. Plus, the symbol of House Greyjoy is the many-tentacled kraken. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rereading-ice-and-fire/327183/37 "2005-10-23T13:00:20Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Yeah, there’s that. > > Here’s another question: do you think the the Ironmen’s Drowned God is actually Cthulhu? “That which is dead may never die” sounds pretty Lovecraftian to me. Plus, the symbol of House Greyjoy is the many-tentacled kraken. Does it ever actually say “That which is dead may never die”, because if so that sounds like a near direct quote from the Cthulhu stuff. I believe the (from memory) exact quote from Lovecraft is “That is not dead which can eternal lie and with strange aeons even death may die”. Anyways, seeing as how GRRM is a gamer, if what you put in there is actually in the books I’d put Cthulhu being the Drowned God at about 100%. Here’s another question, then. What’s up with the Mormont family? They seem to be involved with just about everyone and everything of importance. Such as: Grandpa Mormont - The “Old Bear”, Lord Command of the Night’s Watch Brother Mormont - Conveniently hanging around Dany and Viserys Sister Mormont - One of the advisors to the King in the North (for as long as that lasts - she managed to miss the Red Wedding, didn’t she?) Daughter Mormont - Managed to stay very close to Renly, another Potential King -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rereading-ice-and-fire/327183/38 "2005-10-23T15:04:17Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Does it ever actually say “That which is dead may never die”, because if so that sounds like a near direct quote from the Cthulhu stuff. I believe the (from memory) exact quote from Lovecraft is “That is not dead which can eternal lie and with strange aeons even death may die”. > > Anyways, seeing as how GRRM is a gamer, if what you put in there is actually in the books I’d put Cthulhu being the Drowned God at about 100%. > > Here’s another question, then. > > What’s up with the Mormont family? They seem to be involved with just about everyone and everything of importance. Such as: > > Grandpa Mormont - The “Old Bear”, Lord Command of the Night’s Watch > Brother Mormont - Conveniently hanging around Dany and Viserys > Sister Mormont - One of the advisors to the King in the North (for as long as that lasts - she managed to miss the Red Wedding, didn’t she?) > Daughter Mormont - Managed to stay very close to Renly, another Potential King > > -Joe I’m pretty sure Sister Mormont died at the Twins, along with her mother. I’ll have to look it up, but yeah, da bears sure get around. Martin’s a gamer? That’s unusual for a writer of his generation. Usually, they _start_ with gamiig, and GRRM’s been writing since the 60’s - pre-Gygax. My guess is that he came across the Mythos as a reader, not an RPGer. Now, some more questions: 1. What’s the importance of Asshai by the Shadow (and for that matter, what is the “Shadow”)? Dragons live there, or at least come from there, as did Mellisandre (supposedly), the masked priestess Dany met in Qarth, and the Spicers - who helped orchestrate the Young Wolf’s fall. I have a feeling we’ll find that all roads lead to Asshai. 2. What happened at Summerhall? It has something to do with a great tragedy, Raegar’s youth, and dragons. Whatever it was, it’s very important. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rereading-ice-and-fire/327183/39 "2005-10-23T19:47:04Z")
If you’ll recall, prior to the Red Wedding Robb was planning to attack the Ironmen who were hodling Moat Cailin castle, which is on the neck north of the Twins. His main force was going to charge up the Kings Road from the south. however, he also sent two splinter groups to cross the swamps and simultaneously attack Moat Cailin from west and north. Maege Mormont was leading one of these splinter groups, so she avoided the Red Wedding. As far as we know, she’s still on the loose. We had heard nothing definite about Summerhall. The best clue we have comes from when Davos is held in the dungeons at Dragonstone. He’s thrown into the same cell as some old crackpot. Old crackpot is complaining that Melisandre’s plot to raise a dragon is crazy and remarks at one point: “Did we learn nothing from Summerhall?” The speculation is that house Targaryen did some magical experiment at Summerhall with the intention of creating a dragon, at which point something went very wrong. No one has yet explained how Rhaeger Targaryen got wrapped up in it. Asshai by the Shadow is even more mysterious. It appears to be associated with people who know magic. There are hints that the Spicers, who married into the Westerling family, have some magic tricks up their sleeve. Dany believes that one of the prophecies says she must travel to Asshai. That’s about all the information we have right now. By the way, George is opening his American bookstore tour at the store in my local shopping mall on November 8. You may all now turn green with envy. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2005, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rereading-ice-and-fire/327183/40 "2005-10-23T23:26:22Z")
> [@ITR champion](#): > > Maege Mormont was leading one of these splinter groups, so she avoided the Red Wedding. As far as we know, she’s still on the loose. And her daughter, Breane(?) was running around with Jaime, so I’m pretty confident that she’s still alive and kicking. It just seems weird to me that one relatively unimportant family seems to be so…present. Greatjon and Smalljon both died at the Red Wedding, right? -Joe [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rereading-ice-and-fire/327183.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rereading-ice-and-fire/327183.md?page=3)