# Rereading Ice and Fire **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 21, 2005, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rereading-ice-and-fire/327183 "2005-10-21T01:52:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Amok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f17d59/32.png) [@Amok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amok)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rereading-ice-and-fire/327183/41 "2005-10-24T15:42:19Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > And her daughter, Breane(?) was running around with Jaime, so I’m pretty confident that she’s still alive and kicking. Brienne is not related to the Mormonts. She’s from some little island off the east coast of Westeros, if I remember correctly. ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rereading-ice-and-fire/327183/42 "2005-10-24T15:57:32Z")
Brienne is from House Tarth, as I recall, and last we saw was given Jaime’s Valyrian sword and went off in search of Sansa, thought to be the last living Stark. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2005, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rereading-ice-and-fire/327183/43 "2005-10-25T00:28:28Z")
> [@Rysto](#): > > Brienne is from House Tarth, as I recall, and last we saw was given Jaime’s Valyrian sword and went off in search of Sansa, thought to be the last living Stark. Oops. I guess even my memory isn’t perfect. Anyways, since I’m probably a couple weeks from getting to the dreaded Red Wedding (stupid work) I wanted to ask…since Catelyn is back to life is it possible for Robb to make it back? I seem to remember someone being beheaded, but I think it was Grey Wind, not Robb… -Joe ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2005, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rereading-ice-and-fire/327183/44 "2005-10-25T00:53:37Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Anyways, since I’m probably a couple weeks from getting to the dreaded Red Wedding (stupid work) I wanted to ask…since Catelyn is back to life is it possible for Robb to make it back? > > I seem to remember someone being beheaded, but I think it was Grey Wind, not Robb They cut off Robb’s head and attached Grey Wind’s head to Robb’s body. Of course we don’t know for certain that Thoros couldn’t revive Robb if he managed to acquire both pieces, but I’d say it’s unlikely. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2005, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rereading-ice-and-fire/327183/45 "2005-10-25T01:35:46Z")
> [@ITR champion](#): > > They cut off Robb’s head and attached Grey Wind’s head to Robb’s body. Of course we don’t know for certain that Thoros couldn’t revive Robb if he managed to acquire both pieces, but I’d say it’s unlikely. Hmm…I was kinda close. I guess. I was happy that the Five Kings problem got resolved, I just didn’t like Robb not surviving it. 🙂 Hell, I can’t even remember all five. Robb, Joff, Stannis, Renley. Greyjoy? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Torgo\_ate\_my\_hamster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/71c47a/32.png) [@Torgo\_ate\_my\_hamster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Torgo_ate_my_hamster)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2005, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rereading-ice-and-fire/327183/46 "2005-10-25T14:04:47Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Catelyn just can’t do a lot of talking because her head was nearly sawed off… Can you imagine her being one of the POW characters in FFC: Catelyn Grrhhrhhhahaahhhhhburblegrhhhhhhhhhhgrrggghbbhhh ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2005, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rereading-ice-and-fire/327183/47 "2005-10-25T14:26:05Z")
> [@Torgo ate my hamster](#): > > Can you imagine her being one of the POW characters in FFC: > > Catelyn > > Grrhhrhhhahaahhhhhburblegrhhhhhhhhhhgrrggghbbhhh Must…not…make Marlee Maitlin joke… -Joe, straight to hell, do not pass go ---
**Author:** ![Gozu\_Tashoya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7993a0/32.png) [@Gozu\_Tashoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gozu_Tashoya)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2005, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rereading-ice-and-fire/327183/48 "2005-10-25T21:09:32Z")
> [@ITR champion](#): > > By the way, George is opening his American bookstore tour at the store in my local shopping mall on November 8. You may all now turn green with envy. Meh, that’s not so long before his SoCal appearance, so I’m not turning that dark a shade of green. 😉 ([Martin’s appearance schedule.](http://www.georgerrmartin.com/appearances.html)) And WRT an earlier post about whether or not there’s going to be another world-threatening wave of Others and wights, I’ll have to say yes. (Prediction: The Wall will be breached.) Another prediction of mine is that dragonflame will prove to be anathema to the Others (Other-killing obsidian being referred to as Dragonglass and all), and Dany’s going to bring massive DFA down upon the Others. 🙂 And now, a question out of left field: Who, or what, is Old Nan? I could be way off, but I have the feeling there is much more than meets the eye here. (And none of my SOIAF-reading/rereading friends have found mention of her body turning up…) ---
**Author:** ![lno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a8b319/32.png) [@lno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lno)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2005, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rereading-ice-and-fire/327183/49 "2005-10-25T21:25:28Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Here’s another question: do you think the the Ironmen’s Drowned God is actually Cthulhu? “That which is dead may never die” sounds pretty Lovecraftian to me. Plus, the symbol of House Greyjoy is the many-tentacled kraken. Close. Here’s a section from an excerpt GRRM made publicly available prior to publication: > [@](#): > > _Another one returned_. It was a sign of the Drowned God’s favor, men said. Every other priest lost a man from time to time, even Tarle the Thrice-Drowned, who had once been thought so holy that he was picked to crown a king. But never Aeron Greyjoy. He was the Damphair, who had seen the god’s own watery halls and returned to tell of it. “Rise,” he told the sputtering boy as he slapped him on his naked back. “You have drowned and been returned to us. What is dead can never die.” > > ``` > "But rises." The boy coughed violently, bringing up more water. "Rises again." Every word was bought with pain, but that was the way of the world; a man must fight to live. "Rises again." Emmond staggered to his feet. "Harder. And stronger." > > ``` I don’t think that Cthulhu actually lurks beneath the waves off of Pyke, but rather that this is just GRRM being cute and giving something for certain readers to recognize as the Ironmen are nothing at all like worshippers of Cthulhu. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2005, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rereading-ice-and-fire/327183/50 "2005-10-30T22:02:26Z")
I’ve not had much time to read, but I’ve finally finished the first book. And I’ve come up with a question I haven’t figured out the answer to. During the Rebellion, Robert had the best claim on the throne…but how is that possible when Stannis is his older brother? Wouldn’t he be the best claimant by default? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2005, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rereading-ice-and-fire/327183/51 "2005-10-30T23:17:09Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > During the Rebellion, Robert had the best claim on the throne…but how is that possible when Stannis is his older brother? Wouldn’t he be the best claimant by default? > > -Joe Stannis is Robert’s younger brother. He’s **Renly** ’s older brother, hence Stannis being so angry that Renly claimed the throne. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2005, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rereading-ice-and-fire/327183/52 "2005-10-31T01:27:59Z")
> [@Rysto](#): > > Stannis is Robert’s younger brother. He’s **Renly** ’s older brother, hence Stannis being so angry that Renly claimed the throne. Duh duh duh. Oops. 🙂 -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rereading-ice-and-fire/327183/53 "2005-11-28T02:55:57Z")
I’ve found another truly noble character in the course of my rereading: Davos. Certainly he qualifies. I’ve also come across another question that I can’t seem to find an answer to. In the opening chapter of Book 3 Jaime thinks something along the lines of how (paraphrasing) he’s “loved for a trifle and reviled for his greatest deed.” Killing the Mad King was obviously his greatest deed, but what is the other he’s referring to? Anyone have any ideas? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rereading-ice-and-fire/327183/54 "2005-11-28T03:13:09Z")
He says that he’s loved for a deed he never performed, and hated for his finest act. He’s talking about(Storm of Swords spoilers): the girl that Tyrion married when he was young. Tyrion, remember, thought that Jaime had set the whole thing up for him, when really it was a complete accident. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rereading-ice-and-fire/327183/55 "2005-11-28T14:00:04Z")
Oh, that makes sense. I was thinking of it from a “loved” in a “loved by the people” kind of way, it never occurred to me that it might be a reference to just Tyrion loving him. I’ve come across another wacky theory during my reread as well… Dany’s new friend Whitebeard has shown up to help her. He’s old, from Westeros, and well-travelled. Is he really Barristan Selmy? It makes sense for him to be since, once he escaped he totally disappeared. It’s entirely possible for Varys to have sent him to Illyrio who would have then sent him on to Dany. Barristan would have been willing to do this to atone for his swearing to Robert which, of course, led to the disaster of the latest war as well as Little Bastard Joffrey ending up on the throne… Any opinons? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rereading-ice-and-fire/327183/56 "2005-11-28T14:19:31Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Dany’s new friend Whitebeard has shown up to help her. He’s old, from Westeros, and well-travelled. Is he really Barristan Selmy? > > It makes sense for him to be since, once he escaped he totally disappeared. It’s entirely possible for Varys to have sent him to Illyrio who would have then sent him on to Dany. Barristan would have been willing to do this to atone for his swearing to Robert which, of course, led to the disaster of the latest war as well as Little Bastard Joffrey ending up on the throne… > > Any opinons? > > -Joe Umm… just how far have you read the series? If you haven’t reached the end of book 3, then finish it and _then_ start with the theories. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rereading-ice-and-fire/327183/57 "2005-11-28T15:00:19Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Umm… just how far have you read the series? If you haven’t reached the end of book 3, then finish it and _then_ start with the theories. Actually, I have finished book 3 but it was a couple years ago and, while my memory is usually pretty good for books, my memories for the ASoIaF are pretty terrible for some reason. So, on my rereads, I’m about 450 pages into Book 3. Must be my subconscious, then! -Joe ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rereading-ice-and-fire/327183/58 "2005-11-28T23:14:34Z")
Does anyone know exactly what the Doom of old Valyria is? It seems (from the latest book) that the place got nuked or something…but do they actually ever come right out and say what happened to the place? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Amok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f17d59/32.png) [@Amok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amok)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rereading-ice-and-fire/327183/59 "2005-11-29T01:30:35Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Does anyone know exactly what the Doom of old Valyria is? It seems (from the latest book) that the place got nuked or something…but do they actually ever come right out and say what happened to the place? > > -XT Nope. It’s a _secret_. It seems to still be a smoking wreck though. Maybe volcanos. Or a magical disaster. Or magically disasterious volcanos. Anyway, I wouldn’t be suprised if we find out eventually, but we don’t know yet what happened, and it’s not clear to me how well known the actual details are in Westeros. ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rereading-ice-and-fire/327183/60 "2005-11-29T02:49:51Z")
> [@Rysto](#): > > He says that he’s loved for a deed he never performed, and hated for his finest act. He’s talking about(Storm of Swords spoilers): > > the girl that Tyrion married when he was young. Tyrion, remember, thought that Jaime had set the whole thing up for him, when really it was a complete accident. I never really understood why Tyrion would be grateful to Jamie for that. When Tyrion first meets Tysha, he assumes she’s a “crofter’s daughter, chance met on the road.” Later he is told that she was paid by Jaimie to … pluck his cherry, I suppose. His father makes him watch her be raped by numerous guardsmen, and later makes Tyrion himself rape her. Now, what part of his would make Tyrion grateful to his older brother? That he helped him get laid? That he bought him a whore and let him think she was in love with him? I don’t get it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rereading-ice-and-fire/327183.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rereading-ice-and-fire/327183.md?page=4)