I’ll tell you my opinion on this subject for $5.
Nemo & Ursa:
Public & private rescue & paramedic services can work equally well - they seem to do in Denmark, anyway, where the (public) fire brigade and the (private) rescue service “Falck” cooperate just fine. Use whatever works!
About the “personal responsibility” issue: I can’t help wondering if the American tradition of lawsuits isn’t partly responsible for the different outlooks on this subject. Isn’t it sometimes hard to insist on personal responsibility when you hear of some of the more-or-less frivolous lawsuits that occur ? In Europe, the courts will generally tell you not to behave like an ass - and there’s no tradition of punitive damages (if that’s the term).
Just my 0.02 Euro…
Norman
Earlier, I think, somebody mentioned fire departments. I just wanted to add that in some rural areas, you may voluntarily pay or not pay an annual “tax” to the fire dept. But, if you don’t pay and your house catches on fire, the fire dept. will show up just to make sure everybody got out ok and to prevent it from spreading to other houses, but won’t stop it from burning yours down.
David:
If your point is that there are real consequences for fiscal irresponsibility, then I concur.
Regarding my questions to you, you are still missing the point. I’m not talking about the workers, but about the owners of the rescue companies. Has the concept of private property been completely eliminated from civics discourses? And of course you are not forced to read books to blind people simply because that aspect of your life is not (yet) heavily regulated. But I am asking about a hypothetical. What if it were so regulated, and what if it were your primary business, but you had to get out of it because some bully name Mr. Governor forced you to work, if you intended to work, for whatever pittance he offered?
Ursa:
Ah, how convenient (and short) are our memories. I remind you that we are not far removed from institutionalized slavery and segregation. If you argue that changes in these institutions are testament to the intrinsic goodness of majoritarianism, I will argue right back that what the majority has given, the majority can take away.
I never cease to be amazed at these argumentum ad populum arguments.
“It is lucky for rulers that men do not think.” — Adolf Hitler
David:
My statement, “If your point is that there are real consequences for fiscal irresponsibility, then I concur,” should have read, “If your point is that there are real consequences for fiscal irresponsibility in a free-market, then I concur.”
Obviously, there are no such consequences in a socialist system. You can’t feel pain when you’re high on Soma.
“It is lucky for rulers that men do not think.” — Adolf Hitler
Ursa:
By the way, do you realize you are saying that you would move away to avoid voluntary relations among peaceful honest people? I suppose it is a dreadful prospect in this day and age.
“It is lucky for rulers that men do not think.” — Adolf Hitler
Libertarian, do you realize you’re doing for Libertarianism what Roxy and GodlyGuy are doing for Christianity?
Of course, Lib himself has admitted in another thread that he thinks that most people are neither peaceful nor honest. (As he said to jodih, if he believed most people were basically good, he’d be an anarchist.) Think about the implications of that.
“It’s my considered opinion you’re all a bunch of sissies!”–Paul’s Grandfather
Lib said:
Doesn’t matter who you’re talking about – everything I’ve said still stands. The plumber I mentioned earlier might have been his own boss, or the owner (in fact, the plumber I use is his own boss). In the case at hand, nobody forced them to set up a rescue company (or whatever). See above for the rest of what I said – it all still applies.
No, but you apparently have a soft spot that makes your knee jerk up and hit you in the head whenever you think you see something that you misinterpret to be that way. Can you calm down a bit and see what it is that people are actually saying?
Oh, give me a break, Lib. This is why, as I’ve mentioned elsewhere, these types of “hypothetical” questions are so silly – it ain’t gonna happen. And it certainly has no bearing on this discussion. Nobody is forcing these rescuers to go out and save people. If they don’t like it, they can quit. In fact, forcing people to be rescuers would be about the worst thing you could do. Can you imagine how much effort they’d put into their job? Not a whole lot.
Incidentally, you might really want to consider what Little Nemo said, above.
Oh, and incidentally #2, I’m still waiting to hear about how you would set up a system appropriate to this thread’s topic and if your system would just let poor people die.
Majoritarianism? Argumentum ad populum?
Can I add these to my thesaurus under “Democracy”?
How can you compare the mildest form of democratic socialism (small “d”, small “s”) to slavery and segregation?
Libertarian asks:
Oh, you mean like physicians who MUST accept the typical 30-40¢ on the dollar that Medicare has established as the maximum rate for most services?
Sue from El Paso
Experience is what you get when you didn’t get what you wanted.
Libertarian - very well debated! I whole-heartedly agree with your points.
Things aren’t much different here in Oregon (and other States, I presume) than Europe when it comes to rescue for money. Almost every week some fool gets lost in the thick wilderness around the Cascade Mountains and has to get rescued. It’s almost always inexperienced young hikers from middle class families who thought the woods were simply a real big back yard. The more frivolous ones are fined. This is good.
The point has been raised that as members of society we want our money to go toward helping the lost, the wounded and the dying. That’s true to a point.
Any private enterprise in which the government forces good will is wrong. If, I open a rescue team in my city to help out with fires, natural disasters and , I’m goin to be a raving madman if Uncle Sam marches in to my kitchen when I’m eating dinner to instruct me to drop everything and go rescue some drunk college kids who sobered up, found themselves on the side of Wildcat point, and spelled out S-O-S using spent beer cans glistening in the sun. If I want to charge the kids a monthly fee for my service I better be able to, otherwise I’m getting out of that line of work.
Medicare is a good example of an atrocious government program.
I really don’t grasp why so many people in this country feel such a complete lack of personal accountability. Instead of acting civilized and responsible, they cry to “Big Brother” and scream about “Poverty” & “Inequality”.
I am VERY thankful for the good-natured, selfless volunteers in our communities and I have no problem compensating them for their services extended to me (even if I don’t have much), but damn, don’t FORCE them to help me for free. That’s just Orwellian.
Hell is Other People.