# Rescue rules: do they ever say sorry, too risky for us, bye!
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rescue-rules-do-they-ever-say-sorry-too-risky-for-us-bye/721294
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [June 1, 2015, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rescue-rules-do-they-ever-say-sorry-too-risky-for-us-bye/721294 "2015-06-01T00:56:01Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2015, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rescue-rules-do-they-ever-say-sorry-too-risky-for-us-bye/721294/1 "2015-06-01T00:56:01Z")
Watched San Andreas, which starts with a crazy ass rescue of a gal hanging in a car on the side of a cliff. The rescuers are Fire Department, in a helicopter, and its nuts.
Which got me thinking: when/how do,rescuers say…sorry, you’re screwed? And HOW, ifmthey are in communication with the person needing rescue? How do you tell someone they are too doomed?
Or are firefighters/rescuers sort of pledgd to try, even if its almost a sure thing they will die? Are they sworn to lay down their lives in futile attempts?
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### Author:  [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2015, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rescue-rules-do-they-ever-say-sorry-too-risky-for-us-bye/721294/2 "2015-06-01T00:57:55Z")
And if one of the rescuers ends up needing rescue themselves, do they go to the back of the line, no matter how injured they are or dire their situation, is it always civilians first?
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### Author:  [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2015, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rescue-rules-do-they-ever-say-sorry-too-risky-for-us-bye/721294/3 "2015-06-01T01:11:12Z")
From everything I’ve heard of, and from my training as a medic in the Army, no, rescuers don’t attempt a rescue if the odds of success are too low.
It’s not to say that it’s a safe job, but they won’t try something if it’s too risky. Medics aren’t supposed to step out of cover into a street getting shot to pieces by the enemy (you try to suppress the enemy first, or there’s this harness you can throw if the casualty is still conscious), firefighters won’t try entering fast food restaurant kitchens in Houston (they tend to go up like movie pyrotechnics from the grease fire flashing over), and you’re not going to risk a 15 million dollar helicopter in a cliffside rescue that is probably going to result in a chopper crash.
As for rescuers rescuing each other, they get to be the front of the line. Obviously. It’s your buddies you are rescuing.
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### Author:  [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2015, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rescue-rules-do-they-ever-say-sorry-too-risky-for-us-bye/721294/4 "2015-06-01T01:15:50Z")
So, in the hypothetical situation of someone hanging off an unstable cliff that is about to collapse, what the rescuers would do is say “hang on, we’re getting equipment, stay calm, we’ll get you out of this” and so on. If, an hour later when they have the equipment needed to actually rescue someone from a cliff face where the cliff itself is unstable and about to collapse, and if the victims are actually still alive, then they’ll rescue em. If they are dead, well, at least it was only the victims that were hanging off the cliff in the start of this situation, and not the victims + first responders.
Not every risk can be predicted. No one thought the World Trade center towers were about to collapse - that is not the normal outcome of a fire in a steel building. If they had known about the impending collapse, about 200 first responders wouldn’t have even entered the building.
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### Author:  [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2015, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rescue-rules-do-they-ever-say-sorry-too-risky-for-us-bye/721294/5 "2015-06-01T01:30:39Z")
The Coast Guard’s unofficial motto is “You have to go out, but you don’t have to come back.” After some recent losses they have throttled back on that attitude a bit.
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### Author:  [@Oglomott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oglomott)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2015, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rescue-rules-do-they-ever-say-sorry-too-risky-for-us-bye/721294/6 "2015-06-01T01:45:16Z")
Two years ago, a sinkhole opened up in central Florida, swallowing up a house along with a man inside who was asleep in his bed. Apparently they just presumed he was dead, and made no attempt to rescue him, or recover his remains.
Link:
[http://abcnews.go.com/US/florida-sinkhole-victims-brother-thinks-rescuers-couldve-harder/story?id=18649299](http://abcnews.go.com/US/florida-sinkhole-victims-brother-thinks-rescuers-couldve-harder/story?id=18649299)
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### Author:  [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2015, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rescue-rules-do-they-ever-say-sorry-too-risky-for-us-bye/721294/7 "2015-06-01T01:50:50Z")
I’m pretty sure I signed something at my work in a nuclear facility that puts the public first, and me last if any hazardous situation arose.
Think of all the brave men who went into Chernobyl and Fukushima knowing full-well what the implications were.
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### Author:  [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2015, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rescue-rules-do-they-ever-say-sorry-too-risky-for-us-bye/721294/8 "2015-06-01T01:51:58Z")
Absolutely, one of the arguments against charging for rescue is the potential for pressure, or liability to press on in an unsafe situation.
I just got done with a wilderness medicine conference, and ‘first, make sure the scene is safe,’ is still the standard of care for volunteers and professionals.
OTOH, I was at a trauma conference a couple years ago where a speaker recounted the story of staying with a kid trapped in a partially collapsed car on the on the Bay bridge after the '89 quake, for hours, with Caltrans urging them to get the fuck out of there. Gnarly story, I won’t recount the details here, but probably a match for anything you’d see in a movie.
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### Author:  [@Gbro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gbro)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2015, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rescue-rules-do-they-ever-say-sorry-too-risky-for-us-bye/721294/9 "2015-06-01T04:01:08Z")
As stated scene safety is top priority on all calls. after deployment there can be an order to pull back, out or whatever if conditions change (Safety officer determines structure could collapse for whatever reason). but Rescue Johnny is emotionally bonded with the trapped victim and refuses to leave. Johnny has determined that he would not be able to live with leaving this trapped , lets say child and now IC has a whole new incident. If Johnny safely rescues the child Johnny may his job as a deterrent but Johnny can live with that much easier than abandoning the child and if he looses his life continuing, o well, we all go eventually.
Ok, on a first hand account;
25\<\> years ago as the chief on a mutual aid fire rescue call there is a dog 100 ft down a 150 ft bank on a Iron Ore Pit wall. The dog is on a short shelf running along the bank. Several young boys had gathered all the ropes they could find and were planning to attempt a rescue and parent were alerted, then the local FD and then My FD as we had a team trained in low angle rescue. This however was a high angle scene at 80-85 deg. There is no other rescue team but us.
Special considerations here was, 1 frost was just coming out and ice had many boulders on it from the pit walls. 2., there were many visible boulders throughout the rescue area. The rescue scene was ruled unsafe.
My 1st suggestion was to get a shooter and put the dog down. That was not accepted by family and my explanation that I could not put one of my firefighters in harms way for a dog.
I had several firefighters that volunteered to make an attempt. Now I am in charge and cannot allow this so I then determined (because I love a good Dog as much as the next guy) that I am the one going down the rope.
I of course had all the training Certs and also did State Training through the Technical Colleges back then am the highest trained in High and Low Angle.
Well the time on Line that day seemed like Hours, watching every boulder and planning my action if one should come loose and keeping my 5/8" Static Kernmantle away from all rocks as best I could.
I finally reached the shelf the dog was on and my concern over how we are going to get along lasted less than 2 sec. as the dog was certainly happy to see me.
I rapidly attached the dog to my repel seat with a loop of tubular webbing using a double larks foot around the chest just behind the front legs and signaled to be hoisted out. My top crew had positioned the rescue truck far enough back from the edge to make this a one shot hoist with the 10,000lbs winch.
My hasty attachment of the dog didn’t go as planned because the dog got turned around almost immediate and was coming up backward, but the hitch looked stable even though a double larks foot should have resulted in a very loose attachment.
Watching every boulder and knowing I cant move like before because of dog on my harness I could only feel reassured that this was my job and nobody else’s. minute’s
latter the top of wall was in sight and dog still behind and the faces of my crew were a wonderful sight. I was helped over and then the Black Lab and we both laid there together exhausted from the ordeal.
Just this spring during one of my Permit to carry classes I had the mother of one of the young boys in class and she again thanked me for what we did that day and I asked her if she remembered my suggestion of putting the dog down over the use of my team and she had and still was grateful.
I did get heat from the chief and council as I should have pulled out but sometimes we just do what needs to be done.
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### Author:  [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2015, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rescue-rules-do-they-ever-say-sorry-too-risky-for-us-bye/721294/10 "2015-06-01T04:59:00Z")
Here’s one case of a man drowning in the SF Bay 150 feet from shore. Rescuers at the scene did nothing but notify the Coast Guard. [Alameda police, firefighters watch as man drowns, blame budget cuts for being unable to respond | ABC7 San Francisco | abc7news.com - ABC7 San Francisco](http://abc7news.com/archive/8161285/)
> [@](#):
>
> The Alameda Fire Department says budget constraints are preventing it from recertifying its firefighters in land-based water rescues. Without it, the city would be open to liability.
>
> " Well, if I was off duty I would know what I would do, but I think you’re asking me my on-duty response and I would have to stay within our policies and procedures because that’s what’s required by our department to do," Alameda Fire Div. Chief Ricci Zombeck said when asked by ABC7 if he would enter the water to save a drowning child.
>
> Alameda firefighters could not even go into the water to get the body, so they waited until a woman in her 20s volunteered to bring the body back to the beach.
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### Author:  [@Dioptre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dioptre)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2015, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rescue-rules-do-they-ever-say-sorry-too-risky-for-us-bye/721294/11 "2015-06-01T05:09:59Z")
Second-hand account from a reputable source (discussion at a closed safety workshop).
After the Christchurch earthquake in 2010 there were a number of partially-collapsed or otherwise damaged structures with trapped victims. The rescue teams had to be accompanied by civil engineers who could give a decision on whether it was safe to attempt immediate rescue (presumably in some cases rescue could be attempted after some support was added, but at a risk of delaying medical assistance). A failed attempt could not only add to the casualties, but take skilled rescuers out of action when there were other people they could help.
In a couple of “no-go” cases, volunteer civilian rescuers went in anyway, but my understanding is that the official teams were in a sense morally obliged to not volunteer to put themselves in extreme danger.
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### Author:  [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2015, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rescue-rules-do-they-ever-say-sorry-too-risky-for-us-bye/721294/12 "2015-06-01T05:19:29Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#):
>
> The Coast Guard’s unofficial motto is “You have to go out, but you don’t have to come back.” After some recent losses they have throttled back on that attitude a bit.
Yeah, you beat me to mentioning that motto.
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### Author:  [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2015, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rescue-rules-do-they-ever-say-sorry-too-risky-for-us-bye/721294/13 "2015-06-01T05:20:52Z")
> [@Habeed](#):
>
> . . . and you’re not going to risk a 15 million dollar helicopter in a cliffside rescue that is probably going to result in a chopper crash.
There were stories of Flight Lieutenant Wales (a.k.a. Prince William) flying some risky rescues like this.
> **[Prince William rescues climber left unconscious and injured by 300ft plunge](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2357267/Prince-William-rescues-climber-left-unconscious-injured-300ft-plunge.html)**
>
> The 31-year-old royal flew to rescue of climber Nathan Wright who had plunged 300ft down a steep bank in Snowdonia and lay unconscious and badly injured. The prince's team winched the injured man into their helicopter and airlifted him to hospital
[http://www.people.com/people/package/article/0,,20395222\_20444169,00.html](http://www.people.com/people/package/article/0,,20395222_20444169,00.html)
[Prince William's helicopter rescue gran Barbara Mageean 'may not have seen cliff' | Daily Mail Online](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2016519/Prince-Williams-helicopter-rescue-gran-Barbara-Mageean-seen-cliff.html) (In this case, the victim was dead from injuries on arrival at the hospital.)
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### Author:  [@Battle\_Pope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Battle_Pope)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2015, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rescue-rules-do-they-ever-say-sorry-too-risky-for-us-bye/721294/14 "2015-06-01T05:43:49Z")
IIRC several times during rescue efforts after the 1997 [Thredbo Landslide](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Thredbo_landslide) they pulled search teams off the rubble when geologists and engineers warned that it was becoming unstable.
I used to have some ‘unofficial’ training manuals put together by local SES units given to me by friends who were part of them and the first rule was : Don’t become a casualty.
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### Author:  [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2015, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rescue-rules-do-they-ever-say-sorry-too-risky-for-us-bye/721294/15 "2015-06-01T16:10:31Z")
We live on a bend of a road with a 40 mph speed limit, but many come around the bend doing way over the limit. A few years ago a woman lost control and crashed into a power pole. The top broke off and fell onto her car, covering it in power lines.
The first responders hung way back and waited for a full 45 minutes until the power company showed up and gave an all-clear that the power was definitely shut down before they got her out, put her on a stretcher and took her away.
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### Author:  [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2015, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rescue-rules-do-they-ever-say-sorry-too-risky-for-us-bye/721294/16 "2015-06-01T16:25:20Z")
They certainly do during hurricanes down here.
My neck of the woods has plenty of 911 “we are drowning out here (because we are dumbasses)” recordings from the past few decades.
The responses being basically PC polite versions “good luck with that”.
And I have no problem with that.
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### Author:  [@cornflakes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornflakes)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2015, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rescue-rules-do-they-ever-say-sorry-too-risky-for-us-bye/721294/17 "2015-06-01T17:47:50Z")
> [@outlierrn](#):
>
> ‘First, make sure the scene is safe,’ is still the standard of care for volunteers and professionals.
“Don’t be a victim.” I think that is the first advice given in most medic and rescue classes.
Way back when I took first took water rescue, the adage was put more bluntly- “Better one than two.”
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### Author:  [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2015, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rescue-rules-do-they-ever-say-sorry-too-risky-for-us-bye/721294/18 "2015-06-01T18:40:26Z")
When I was taking Advanced Life Saving classes back in college, they pointed out that it’s better for one person to drown than two. If you go out and try to save somebody who proceeds to freak right the fuck out and climb all over you, kick free and swim away, and keep your distance until they stop thrashing around. If that happens because they’re drowning, they’ll probably be a lot easier to haul to shore.
We spent a lot more time practicing how to escape from people than on how to grab them.
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### Author:  [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2015, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rescue-rules-do-they-ever-say-sorry-too-risky-for-us-bye/721294/19 "2015-06-01T18:45:22Z")
I tried to rescue a drowning person once. Ain’t doing that again without severe modification to my approach to say the least.
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### Author:  [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Springtime_for_Spacers)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2015, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rescue-rules-do-they-ever-say-sorry-too-risky-for-us-bye/721294/20 "2015-06-01T19:01:12Z")
I remember reading an account by a guy who was in charge of divers trying to rescue a child who had gone through ice. His job was to pull the guys out before they got hypothermia, it wasn’t long, five minutes? They weren’t able to find the child but all the would be rescuers survived. The man in charge said in some ways his was the hardest job that day.
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