# Rescue rules: do they ever say sorry, too risky for us, bye!
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rescue-rules-do-they-ever-say-sorry-too-risky-for-us-bye/721294
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [June 1, 2015, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rescue-rules-do-they-ever-say-sorry-too-risky-for-us-bye/721294 "2015-06-01T00:56:01Z")
**Posts on this page:** 7
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)
#### Post date: [June 21, 2015, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rescue-rules-do-they-ever-say-sorry-too-risky-for-us-bye/721294/41 "2015-06-21T23:52:44Z")
> [@Habeed](#):
>
> As for rescuers rescuing each other, they get to be the front of the line. Obviously. It’s your buddies you are rescuing.
Do you know this for a fact or did you pull it out of your butt? Ever hear of triage?
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### Author:  [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)
#### Post date: [June 22, 2015, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rescue-rules-do-they-ever-say-sorry-too-risky-for-us-bye/721294/42 "2015-06-22T00:10:16Z")
I quit a volunteer fire department due to it having too many members who went past enthusiastic into reckless. It got to where I worried that they’d get me killed along with themselves. This is a far from uncommon problem.
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### Author:  [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)
#### Post date: [June 22, 2015, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rescue-rules-do-they-ever-say-sorry-too-risky-for-us-bye/721294/43 "2015-06-22T03:13:43Z")
Here’s recent event from Ularu (was Aires Rock) , Australia.
Basically they left a man who fell down a cliff on the side of the cliff over night,
rather than setting up a night operation. They said they had spoke to him and decided he was not injured… and that it was dangerous to do a rescue at night.
But when they did start the rescue at dawn and rescue him, he had broken pelvis and limbs… and bad hypothermia. Uninjured people have died from hypothermia in the past…
> **[Tourist trapped in Uluru crevice winched to safety in critical condition](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-12/uluru-tourist-spends-night-trapped-in-crevice-winched-safety/6540480)**
>
> A tourist with multiple limb fractures, head injuries and hypothermia is winched to safety about 200 metres up the face of Uluru after spending a night on the rock trapped in a crevice.
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### Author:  [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)
#### Post date: [June 22, 2015, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rescue-rules-do-they-ever-say-sorry-too-risky-for-us-bye/721294/44 "2015-06-22T06:11:23Z")
> [@Habeed](#):
>
> firefighters won’t try entering fast food restaurant kitchens in Houston (they tend to go up like movie pyrotechnics from the grease fire flashing over),
Wasn’t there an absolutely disastrous collapse of a burning McDonalds on Bellaire or Bissonet? that killed like five fire fighters a decade or more ago?
I wondered why they went inside checking for victims when the fire happened at 3am or something, it was set to cover up embezzlement by an employee.:smack:
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### Author:  [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)
#### Post date: [June 22, 2015, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rescue-rules-do-they-ever-say-sorry-too-risky-for-us-bye/721294/45 "2015-06-22T13:50:50Z")
> [@Fir\_na\_tine](#):
>
> Check out the book [3,000 degrees](http://www.amazon.com/3000-Degrees-Story-Deadly-Fought/dp/1885408838) about the Worcester, MA cold storage warehouse fire. 6 FF died. The on scene commander physically blocked the doorway to prevent further futile rescue attempts. Now THAT was a tough call to make!
That was a terrible tragedy, because there were no homeless people in the building. The inside of the building was covered in asphalt, and when it caught fire, the inside became a blast furnace. The building had been empty for years, a fire hazrd. it should have been torn down years before.
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### Author:  [@CGav8r](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CGav8r)
#### Post date: [June 22, 2015, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rescue-rules-do-they-ever-say-sorry-too-risky-for-us-bye/721294/46 "2015-06-22T14:57:02Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#):
>
> The Coast Guard’s unofficial motto is “You have to go out, but you don’t have to come back.” After some recent losses they have throttled back on that attitude a bit.
Yes, that has taken a back seat to make every attempt to mitigate risks through Operational Risk Management (ORM), where prior to a rescue, the response unit will look at a list of factors to try to score probable risk to a mission. Things like weather, day or night conditions, visibility, and the experience of crew are considered and scored, and then the score is given to the Rescue Coordination Center (RCC) that is sending the response crew out. That score will fall somewhere on a Green, Amber or Red scale and if it goes too high, then the SAR coordinator or the commanding officer of the response unit will try to mitigate the risk. Can the rescue wait until daylight, or the storm passes through? Can the ship steam closer to shore before trying to hoist the patient off? All of these have to be considered.
Now, per the Coast Guard’s Air Operations Manual, under Risk Management,
> [@](#):
>
> Operational commanders, Commanding Officers, and Aircraft Commanders shall carefully weigh the urgency of each mission and assess the benefits to be gained versus the risks involved. For all missions, potential risks to the aircraft and crew shall be weighed against risks to personnel and/or property if the mission is not undertaken.
It then gives categories for warranted risk, and what is acceptable. Under “Saving Human Life” it states:
> [@](#):
>
> If a mission is likely to save human life, it warrants a maximum effort. When no suitable alternatives exist and the mission has a reasonable chance of success, the risk of damage to or abuse of the aircraft is acceptable, even though such damage or abuse may render the aircraft unrecoverable. Probable loss of the
> aircrew is not an acceptable risk.
So I can trash my aircraft, like maybe fly a helo with a ton of people in the back (beyond the recommended weight and balance numbers), where it would still be flyable from the SAR location, but the weight would cause so much stress that the helo might have to be sold for scrap. But hang my crew’s ass out there and sacrifice them, like fly offshore so far that I could deliver lifesaving medicine to a ship, but not make it back to shore? That is not acceptable.
Side note: There is a category where sacrifice of the crew is acceptable; under “National Defense”:
> [@](#):
>
> Risk of damage to or sacrifice of the aircraft and crew is
> acceptable if the gain is the defense of the United States, its
> citizens, and/or installations.
Back to the OP’s question; yes, there are times that I’ve made the decision to not go out until the weather improved, since it would only mean a delay of a few hours, and there are times where unit’s I’ve been at have had to say no to a rescue (a guy stranded on a barrier island after ignoring the mandatory evacuation, who then called in to be rescued comes to mind). At that point, the RCC spoke to the folks who needed rescuing, saying that they were unable to effect the rescue, and then put them on a radio watch where they would check in every hour and monitor their status. And there are times where pilots I’ve known have done everything they could to rescue someone, and have had to leave people in distress due to Bingo fuel, but they ensured that the RCC and the Ops Officer of the response unit knew, so they could be relieved by another aircraft on scene, who continued the rescue.
And lastly, I knew someone who had an aircraft malfunction that had to leave the SAR scene, and one of the folks they were trying to hoist had to remain behind, and died. It affected the pilot deeply, and I don’t think he is flying anymore.
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### Author:  [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)
#### Post date: [June 22, 2015, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rescue-rules-do-they-ever-say-sorry-too-risky-for-us-bye/721294/47 "2015-06-22T15:23:20Z")
> [@Isilder](#):
>
> Here’s recent event from Ularu (was Aires Rock) , Australia.
>
> Basically they left a man who fell down a cliff on the side of the cliff over night,
> rather than setting up a night operation. They said they had spoke to him and decided he was not injured… and that it was dangerous to do a rescue at night…
>
> [Trapped tourist winched to safety in critical condition after spending night in Uluru crevice - ABC News](http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-12/uluru-tourist-spends-night-trapped-in-crevice-winched-safety/6540480)
Was it a helicopter rescue or a rope/rappel rescue?
If it was the former I could see (heh) the logic. If it was the later WTF?
Rope work doesn’t become more dangerous just because its dark. Just ask cavers.
As an aside , many cavers big fear is being rescued by a non- caver emergency response team that don’t know WTF they are doing and “taking over” any rescue effort.
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