# Research driving claims about campus rape may be a fraud. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 2, 2015, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/research-driving-claims-about-campus-rape-may-be-a-fraud/729679 "2015-09-02T04:22:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2015, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/research-driving-claims-about-campus-rape-may-be-a-fraud/729679/81 "2015-09-04T18:52:58Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > If you pull a sample at random from a population, you can extrapolate safely to the population that the sample was taken from. You cannot extrapolate safely to a much larger population. > > For example, if you took a random sample of people in Utah and asked them whether they were Mormon, you could use the results to form conclusions about the percentage of Utah residents who are Mormons. You could not extrapolate the results to the percentage of Americans who are Mormons, or the percentage of human beings who are Mormons. Randomness is key, though. If your sample is not random in the first place, it won’t render accurate results. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2015, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/research-driving-claims-about-campus-rape-may-be-a-fraud/729679/82 "2015-09-04T18:53:09Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > **RNATB** , I get the idea from lack of response to what kind of due process there should be, if any, and your statement that believing that there is anything more than a 50% chance of guilt warrants expulsion. Uh, what? You never mentioned due process in your previous posts. And what the fuck does the standard of proof have to do with schools impeding law enforcement? And while we’re on the subject, what standard of proof do you _expect_ a school to apply? ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2015, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/research-driving-claims-about-campus-rape-may-be-a-fraud/729679/83 "2015-09-04T18:55:47Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I have asked for some clear explanation of what lesser burden of proof would be accepted. Not a lawyer, so “preponderance” don’t mean diddley to me without some examples. About that I am indeed ignorant. Give me a hypothetical accusation of rape that would have the evidence highly probably not be sufficient to win at trial and that would meet that standard. > > Again, not a lawyer, but most rape cases that are of the sorts being included in these college surveys are of the “too inebriated/high to consent” or “I said ‘No.’” variety, having had sex is not in question, significant physical violence is not usually alleged, and the cases already depend mostly on how much the accuser is believed about lack of consent versus how much the accused is that there was mutual consent. The only difference I can imagine in such cases is that if significant doubt exists over who is being truthful then “not guilty” is often a court’s response, while in such cases a school tribunal is free to say that in the case of significant doubt over who is truthful the accused should be expelled. Unclear if the accuser would be protected from cross examination in that circumstance as well out of well intended concern to protect her from being re-victimized. Is there another scenario that you see as probable? > > Yes, that equals “suspicion alone, without any burden of proof.” > > I remain waiting for anyone to offer an explanation as to why non-college environments should be allowed to be so much more risky for young women and only women in college environments (statistically at, if anything, less risk than same aged women in non-college environments) are the population of concern. > > Oh an interesting factoid according to the Lisak study: More than one out a hundred of college aged men have committed multiple acts of child sexual abuse as well and about 2.5% have beaten up an intimate partner. Now I actually do not doubt these numbers as the [CDC’s surveys](http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/cdc_nisvs_ipv_report_2013_v17_single_a.pdf), done with much greater care, come up with general population numbers on intimate partner violence that are _significantly_ worse and the vast majority occurring first before age 25, and many before age 18. That report contains scary and sad statistics to be sure, but they do also provide the actual context: colleges are relatively safer places than the rest of the country is. The rest of the country just does not apparently rank as much concern. Welcome to the world of privilege: those who are **most** privileged deserve the **most** protection. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2015, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/research-driving-claims-about-campus-rape-may-be-a-fraud/729679/84 "2015-09-04T19:03:06Z")
**BG** let’s play this out at that just over 50% preponderance level. No solid proof but it seems more likely than not, if just barely, that a crime occurred. Let us assume it was reported at least. But no conviction, not that level of proof. I am fine with, based on a preponderance of evidence, doing things that may inconvenience the accused in service of providing support to the presumed victim, sort of a campus appropriate restraining order. I am fine with a mandated set of educational sessions and even some mentoring system by some group of trained male peers … “The no means no Bros” … The alternative is that many who you are far from sure are guilty (maybe just thinking they are a hair over 50% of the way of thinking they are but almost 50% sure they are not) are expelled with serious life consequences, and those who are guilty are expelled but just having the behavior shifted to a different locale and onto a different set of women. Really no good results. **Jimmy** , **RNATB** responded to my claim that colleges have encouraged women to _not_ contact the police and swept things under the rug with a “where did I get that from?” That was the point being discussed at that particular moment. Ms. Brodsky’s quote mentioned how she was indeed told to not go to the police by college officials and the bit you linked to expounded upon how colleges have persistently tried to put these issues under the rug in the past. And that is from someone who is very concerned that insisting on involving the police risks fewer who will report at all. What part of this do you not comprehend? I get that it is scary to involve the police. For a college student and for a factory worker or a nurse’s aide. I can understand how someone struggling with whether or not to involve the police would be grateful to be told that they don’t have to, that they do not need to be interviewed by experts or give any physical evidence, and that they, the school, will take care of disciplining the accused without all of that level of proof needed, maybe expel him. No, no need to put yourself out there and do that which actually might protect the next woman, where ever she may be … it’s okay, that would be hard, don’t bother (and let’s keep this off our reported stats, okay?) ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2015, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/research-driving-claims-about-campus-rape-may-be-a-fraud/729679/85 "2015-09-04T19:16:58Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Uh, what? You never mentioned due process in your previous posts. And what the fuck does the standard of proof have to do with schools impeding law enforcement? And while we’re on the subject, what standard of proof do you _expect_ a school to apply? I have been very clear: the school’s roles are a) Working on prevention. In my mind this should include schools working cooperatively to reach out with programming to the High Schools and with programming to incoming students. b) Supporting the presumed victim, emotionally, socially, psychologically, and I’ll add this in, maybe even with a school funded independent legal advocate. c) Strongly encouraging the presumed victim to involve the police immediately. Supporting her (and less often but sometimes him) through that process. d) Staying out of the way of the professionals doing their jobs. Do not play at being investigator, or prosecution, or defense, or judge, or jury, or executioner. Let alone all at the same time. Leave that to those trained to do those jobs. e) If there is not enough evidence for the experts to bring charges or to gain a conviction when charges are brought the school leaves the accused alone regarding the accusation other than potentially as in my above post. Their role remains to support the presumed victim; not to punish the suspected criminal extrajudicially. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2015, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/research-driving-claims-about-campus-rape-may-be-a-fraud/729679/86 "2015-09-04T19:36:14Z")
Okay, so you are _actually_ saying that a college has no authority to enforce its code of conduct, or at least that it can only punish minor violations. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2015, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/research-driving-claims-about-campus-rape-may-be-a-fraud/729679/87 "2015-09-04T19:41:57Z")
As soon as you deal with the realities of one of these cases, what you see is that there is no such distinction to be made between “supporting” a victim and making a disciplinary decision. They’re in the same lab, or he works at the campus gym. Now what? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2015, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/research-driving-claims-about-campus-rape-may-be-a-fraud/729679/88 "2015-09-04T21:44:29Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Okay, so you are _actually_ saying that a college has no authority to enforce its code of conduct, or at least that it can only punish minor violations. No. That when the issues are serious matters of law they _defer to the proper authorities_ and those processes. University officials do not even play police investigators and judges on TV; they should not do “let’s pretend” when serious real crimes and major consequences for at least two people are potentially involved. Academic misconduct? Up to them. Crimes that are not so serious and that no one wants to have the student have a criminal record over? Like one time vandalizing school property? Okay fine. A school board disciplinary hearing. Hate speech, forged documents … all sorts of things are appropriate for the school to take the lead in investigating and determining if guilty and what a sanction might be. Murder? Go to the police and if the suspect is not charged or is charged and found not guilty then defer to that judgement. Rape? Yes same thing. Would anyone _consider_ not involving the police in an attempted murder case because it might be hard for victim to have to testify? “S’alright, we will investigate it ourselves and probably expel him/her. No need to call the police and collect evidence that will help determine the truth. You won’t have to even face him. There there.” OTOH someone says that you tried to kill him, police look into it and say that there is not enough evidence to charge you, but the guy says you tried to push him off a roof and two people had seen you arguing before that, and you know, you look the type, and your Pit threads are read out loud demonstrating you being a real ass … an academic board is not sure who is telling the truth but the other guy is pretty convincing and there is the corroboration … 50.1% sure. Should you be expelled? Having a code of conduct that states “Rape is not allowed.” is as stupid as having it say “We do not allow murder.” … At least you should not have to say that _this_ law we won’t facilitate your getting away with breaking. Although again, the practice of keeping the police away for other offenses and the tradition of looking the other way does set a precedent that college is a law-free zone. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2015, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/research-driving-claims-about-campus-rape-may-be-a-fraud/729679/89 "2015-09-04T21:58:12Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > As soon as you deal with the realities of one of these cases, what you see is that there is no such distinction to be made between “supporting” a victim and making a disciplinary decision. They’re in the same lab, or he works at the campus gym. Now what? Funny enough I already addressed this - > [@DSeid](#): > > … I am fine with, based on a preponderance of evidence, doing things that may inconvenience the accused in service of providing support to the presumed victim, sort of a campus appropriate restraining order. … Yes, based on “a preponderance of evidence” the accused may need to move labs, change jobs, or minimally arrange his schedule at each to allow for no unwanted contact if such is needed in service of providing needed support. Was that written too unclearly to be understood? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2015, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/research-driving-claims-about-campus-rape-may-be-a-fraud/729679/90 "2015-09-05T19:42:39Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > No. That when the issues are serious matters of law they _defer to the proper authorities_ and those processes. University officials do not even play police investigators and judges on TV; they should not do “let’s pretend” when serious real crimes and major consequences for at least two people are potentially involved. > > Academic misconduct? Up to them. > > Crimes that are not so serious and that no one wants to have the student have a criminal record over? Like one time vandalizing school property? Okay fine. A school board disciplinary hearing. Hate speech, forged documents … all sorts of things are appropriate for the school to take the lead in investigating and determining if guilty and what a sanction might be. Murder? Go to the police and if the suspect is not charged or is charged and found not guilty then defer to that judgement. Rape? Yes same thing. Would anyone _consider_ not involving the police in an attempted murder case because it might be hard for victim to have to testify? “S’alright, we will investigate it ourselves and probably expel him/her. No need to call the police and collect evidence that will help determine the truth. You won’t have to even face him. There there.” > > OTOH someone says that you tried to kill him, police look into it and say that there is not enough evidence to charge you, but the guy says you tried to push him off a roof and two people had seen you arguing before that, and you know, you look the type, and your Pit threads are read out loud demonstrating you being a real ass … an academic board is not sure who is telling the truth but the other guy is pretty convincing and there is the corroboration … 50.1% sure. Should you be expelled? > > Having a code of conduct that states “Rape is not allowed.” is as stupid as having it say “We do not allow murder.” … At least you should not have to say that _this_ law we won’t facilitate your getting away with breaking. Although again, the practice of keeping the police away for other offenses and the tradition of looking the other way does set a precedent that college is a law-free zone. I agree with this wholeheartedly. This trend towards serious punishment with only “preponderance of the evidence” civil standards is concerning from a liberty standpoint. No, getting expelled from school is not the same as being put in prison, but it is an extreme handicap in your personal and career development. Any investigation into such allegations should require strict proof and be done by professionals. Further, the greater the penalty involved, the greater the protections should be for the accused. If I am accused of overtime parking with a maximum $20 fine, then it is not unreasonable that I don’t get a jury trial and publicly paid attorneys to represent me along with experts to analyze the time frame that tire marks are left at the scene. The due process afforded to me is minimal because the punishment is minimal. In a world where not having a college degree is a serious impediment to a successful future, I think it should be left to a mostly neutral criminal justice system to prosecute a rape allegation instead of allowing a college board made up entirely of man hating liberal career academia types applying a low standard of proof. Hell, the accused is already handicapped in the criminal justice system. Our rules of evidence have evolved so as not to require corroborative evidence in rape cases, the rape shield laws hamper his defense, and virtually any action taken or not taken by the alleged victim can be pointed to as evidence of his guilt. She immediately ran to the police=she was raped. She waited to report it=she was scared because she was raped. She acted differently afterwards=because she was raped. She acted normally=she was trying to hide the fact she was raped. The criminal system itself is already skewed against the accused in sexual assault cases. There is no need to have a kangaroo court with even fewer safeguards on top of this for college students. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2015, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/research-driving-claims-about-campus-rape-may-be-a-fraud/729679/91 "2015-09-05T20:15:34Z")
Well, then nobody will ever be expelled from any institution, since there will never be a criminal proceeding for academic misconduct or application fraud or anyone of a dozen different expellable offenses. ETA: What “trend”? Do you think students received more legal protection in the past? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/research-driving-claims-about-campus-rape-may-be-a-fraud/729679.md?page=4)