# Researching TOR browsers & the NSA **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 1, 2015, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/researching-tor-browsers-the-nsa/729559 "2015-09-01T00:26:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ZurBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/71e660/32.png) [@ZurBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZurBob)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/researching-tor-browsers-the-nsa/729559/1 "2015-09-01T00:26:57Z")
While looking for TOR browser information, I came across several articles that stated, in effect: Simply Googling “TOR” or visiting websites related to such, automatically red flags one’s activity to the NSA. I’ve seen no documentation supporting these statements, so, is this merely the so called experts’ conjecture, or is there proof? ---
**Author:** ![sweeteviljesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@sweeteviljesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweeteviljesus)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/researching-tor-browsers-the-nsa/729559/2 "2015-09-01T18:47:18Z")
The NSA is not permitted to operate in the US (although if you happen to bounce through a server outside the US, your traffic is fair game according to Edward Snowden). Also, wouldn’t such a thing be classified? Unless it was part of Snowden’s disclosure, the people who say that are just whistling Dixie. Furthermore, just because they flag a search, doesn’t mean they care. Presumably, they are looking for patterns of behavior which might indicate that you are a threat. Just googling TOR is probably not enough to put you on their radar. FWIW, Rob ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/researching-tor-browsers-the-nsa/729559/3 "2015-09-02T03:58:03Z")
They are surely watching everyone who posts in this very thread, OP in particular! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![ZurBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/71e660/32.png) [@ZurBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZurBob)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/researching-tor-browsers-the-nsa/729559/4 "2015-09-02T09:36:00Z")
Nope, they can’t be watching me, I have tin foil on my fingers as I type! What sweeteviljesus said makes sense… I just can’t shake the NSA’s activities from about ten years ago from my mind, when the FISA regs. were tossed out the window. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/researching-tor-browsers-the-nsa/729559/5 "2015-09-02T16:42:29Z")
> [@sweeteviljesus](#): > > The NSA is not permitted to operate in the US (although if you happen to bounce through a server outside the US, your traffic is fair game according to Edward Snowden). You sure about that? The CIA isn’t allowed to operate in the US, but that’s a separate agency. That giant traffic storage facility in Utah isn’t just for international data, is it? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/researching-tor-browsers-the-nsa/729559/6 "2015-09-02T16:52:33Z")
Googling the word “Tor” yields 293 million hits. How much time do you think the NSA has in their day to personally investigate every single person responsible for one of those websites? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/researching-tor-browsers-the-nsa/729559/7 "2015-09-02T17:11:45Z")
When texting I occasionally will send “Jihad” as a random message. A few recipients have gotten seriously pissed off. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/researching-tor-browsers-the-nsa/729559/8 "2015-09-02T19:18:57Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > When texting I occasionally will send “Jihad” as a random message. > > A few recipients have gotten seriously pissed off. Then it’s a good thing you didn’t say “nuclear weapon” or “hijack”. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/researching-tor-browsers-the-nsa/729559/9 "2015-09-02T19:26:51Z")
I found out about this thread from the NSA newsletter. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/researching-tor-browsers-the-nsa/729559/10 "2015-09-02T21:43:08Z")
Bear in mind Tor was created by the US intelligence community and still receives considerable (majority?) funding from the US Government. And yes, NSA will track your Tor interests. BFD. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/researching-tor-browsers-the-nsa/729559/11 "2015-09-02T22:42:59Z")
Back in the Usenet heyday it became popular in certain circles (and still seen occasionally, I think) to end every post or e-mail with a few lines containing a bunch of keywords that were imagined to be of interest to some big United States Spy Agency and its imagined robo-scanners that were watching every packet on the then-fledgling Internet. It was commonly done by means of a signature line. The theory was to counteract the spying by drowning the spies in an excess of white-noise red-flag words. I doubt that anyone every really knew how real that was. ---
**Author:** ![sweeteviljesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@sweeteviljesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweeteviljesus)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/researching-tor-browsers-the-nsa/729559/12 "2015-09-03T14:58:40Z")
Indeed. At the time the “NSA Trawler” was considered an urban legend and was debunked by noting that the processing power did not exist to handle the volume of data. It seems the NSA picked up the gauntlet. [http://www.hacker-dictionary.com/terms/NSA-line-eater](http://www.hacker-dictionary.com/terms/NSA-line-eater) ---
**Author:** ![ZurBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/71e660/32.png) [@ZurBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZurBob)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/researching-tor-browsers-the-nsa/729559/13 "2015-09-03T23:25:40Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Googling the word “Tor” yields 293 million hits. > > How much time do you think the NSA has in their day to personally investigate every single person responsible for one of those websites? For proper context: 293 million hits on Google does not equate to 293 million unique web sites.:smack: For clarification: My reference to a single red flag in the gross NSA database did not imply a PERSONAL INVESTIGATION by the NSA of everyone who ever typed TOR on a keyboard. It simply meant, (as a typical statistical red flag would indicate), that there is ONE data point among perhaps trillions, of interest. There is no need to distort my query into something that fits your personal agenda. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![ZurBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/71e660/32.png) [@ZurBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZurBob)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2015, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/researching-tor-browsers-the-nsa/729559/14 "2015-09-04T00:02:50Z")
It’s not necessary to divide this discussion into black and white: Tinfoil hat wearing nut jobs, VS ball cap wearing complacent dumb-asses… Each side has valid concerns, and the solution probably lies somewhere between their intractable viewpoints. IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Turble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Turble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turble)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2015, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/researching-tor-browsers-the-nsa/729559/15 "2015-09-04T15:18:22Z")
Rather than making multiple searches for Tor and/or other privacy related things on your regular browser it may make a lot of sense to simply [download the Tor Browser](https://www.torproject.org/download/download-easy.html.en) and make those searches using it. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2015, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/researching-tor-browsers-the-nsa/729559/16 "2015-09-04T15:50:50Z")
There are questions as to how secure TOR actually is. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2015, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/researching-tor-browsers-the-nsa/729559/17 "2015-09-04T15:56:21Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Then it’s a good thing you didn’t say “nuclear weapon” or “hijack”. No, the REAL code is: Bring the presents to the wedding on [DATE] ---
**Author:** ![Turble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Turble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turble)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2015, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/researching-tor-browsers-the-nsa/729559/18 "2015-09-04T17:39:46Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > There are questions as to how secure TOR actually is. Yes, it appears a guy who ran a global criminal enterprise via Tor for several years and who was being hunted by many governments did finally get caught … when he posted his real name on a website he accessed over Tor. For those who simply want to read about various subjects without worrying that certain word combinations may trigger investigations Tor is probably a fine choice. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2015, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/researching-tor-browsers-the-nsa/729559/19 "2015-09-04T17:53:35Z")
> [@Turble](#): > > Yes, it appears a guy who ran a global criminal enterprise via Tor for several years and who was being hunted by many governments did finally get caught … when he posted his real name on a website he accessed over Tor. > > For those who simply want to read about various subjects without worrying that certain word combinations may trigger investigations Tor is probably a fine choice. Certainly; for legal activities that one wouldn’t want to be associated with but which the NSA doesn’t care about (much). But if the NSA (or any other one party) owns or has compromised all 3 of the routers you are using, then they can trace your packets. Also keep in mind that the exit router can see everything, so if you’re entering or reading sensitive info, the exit router sees it in the clear even if it’s an https secure address. What TOR does is mask the origin and destination of packets along with hiding the contents from anyone along most of the route. This involves encryption of the packets in layers, but the exit node removes that last layer and can see the original packet.