# Resident Grammarians: How does "sub-freezing temperatures" sound to you? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 31, 2006, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resident-grammarians-how-does-sub-freezing-temperatures-sound-to-you/342425 "2006-01-31T22:50:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2006, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resident-grammarians-how-does-sub-freezing-temperatures-sound-to-you/342425/1 "2006-01-31T22:50:21Z")
I read this today in a magazine: “… A glutton for punishment, the CEO also enjoys running in sub-freezing temperatures…” Sub-freezing? Google gave me 176,000 hits. ---
**Author:** ![daffyduck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ec9cab/32.png) [@daffyduck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/daffyduck)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2006, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resident-grammarians-how-does-sub-freezing-temperatures-sound-to-you/342425/2 "2006-01-31T22:55:58Z")
The American Heritage Dictionary prefers it without the hyphen. [http://www.bartleby.com/61/96/S0839600.html](http://www.bartleby.com/61/96/S0839600.html) ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2006, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resident-grammarians-how-does-sub-freezing-temperatures-sound-to-you/342425/3 "2006-01-31T22:58:01Z")
Sounds fine to me. The _sub-_ prefix means “below” or “beneath”. Sub-freezing just means below freezing. Why would you think it’s not proper usage? ---
**Author:** ![Scarlett67](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scarlett67/32/7387_2.png) [@Scarlett67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scarlett67)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2006, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resident-grammarians-how-does-sub-freezing-temperatures-sound-to-you/342425/4 "2006-01-31T22:58:37Z")
Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate (11th ed., the most recent) has it sans hyphen, dated 1949. ---
**Author:** ![Bytegeist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@Bytegeist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bytegeist)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2006, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resident-grammarians-how-does-sub-freezing-temperatures-sound-to-you/342425/5 "2006-01-31T23:02:22Z")
I guess “infra-freezing” just never caught on, like you’d think it would. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2006, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resident-grammarians-how-does-sub-freezing-temperatures-sound-to-you/342425/6 "2006-01-31T23:10:27Z")
Sounds fine to me too, and less ambiguous than “sub-zero.” (I’m never sure whether “sub-zero” means “sub-freezing” or “below 0[sup]o[/sup]F”…) ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2006, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resident-grammarians-how-does-sub-freezing-temperatures-sound-to-you/342425/7 "2006-01-31T23:16:52Z")
It sounds fine to me. It makes it clear the person runs in weather below 32 degrees, not just plain chilly weather. Why wouldn’t it sound correct? ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2006, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resident-grammarians-how-does-sub-freezing-temperatures-sound-to-you/342425/8 "2006-01-31T23:31:35Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Why wouldn’t it sound correct? Based on other posts in this thread, I’m beginning to suspect the OP is objecting to the use of the hyphen, not the term itself. IMO, it’s still acceptable, if somewhat dated, usage. ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2006, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resident-grammarians-how-does-sub-freezing-temperatures-sound-to-you/342425/9 "2006-01-31T23:32:01Z")
I’m more used to “sub-zero” but it sounds reasonable enough to me. ---
**Author:** ![danceswithcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9e8a1a/32.png) [@danceswithcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithcats)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2006, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resident-grammarians-how-does-sub-freezing-temperatures-sound-to-you/342425/10 "2006-02-01T02:20:38Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > Sounds fine to me too, and less ambiguous than “sub-zero.” (I’m never sure whether “sub-zero” means “sub-freezing” or “below 0[sup]o[/sup]F”…) I always took sub-zero to mean sub-freezing or below 0° **C**. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2006, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resident-grammarians-how-does-sub-freezing-temperatures-sound-to-you/342425/11 "2006-02-01T02:47:59Z")
> [@danceswithcats](#): > > I always took sub-zero to mean sub-freezing or below 0° **C**. Round these parts, sub-zero means below 0 F. And yes, people run in those temps. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2006, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resident-grammarians-how-does-sub-freezing-temperatures-sound-to-you/342425/12 "2006-02-01T02:53:49Z")
There’s nothing wrong with the expression. Saying ‘sub-freezing’ avoids the possibility of confusion between below-zero Fahrenheit and below-zero Celsius when the temperature scale is not specified, if what you really want to say is ‘below freezing’. Also, as a compound adjective, the expression ‘sub-freezing’ is much clearer _with_ the hyphen. ---
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2006, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resident-grammarians-how-does-sub-freezing-temperatures-sound-to-you/342425/13 "2006-02-01T03:37:52Z")
I’m back. How do freezing temperatures differ from sub-freezing? Can temperatures be below freezing? A temperature of 20 degrees is freezing, so what would sub-freezing be? ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2006, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resident-grammarians-how-does-sub-freezing-temperatures-sound-to-you/342425/14 "2006-02-01T03:50:26Z")
> [@Carnac the Magnificent!](#): > > I’m back. How do freezing temperatures differ from sub-freezing? > > Can temperatures be below freezing? A temperature of 20 degrees is freezing, so what would sub-freezing be? Hmm. Never thought of it that way. To me, ‘freezing’ means ‘at the freezing point of water’, 0C/32F. If you place water in a much colder environment\*, it always actually freezes at 0C, doesn’t it, no matter how much colder the resulting ice is going to get? In other words, there is never any actual liquid water at temperatures below zero Celsius? [sub]\*At standard pressure (101.3 kPa, or whatever it is). No tricks with high pressure, eh?[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2006, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resident-grammarians-how-does-sub-freezing-temperatures-sound-to-you/342425/15 "2006-02-01T03:59:16Z")
The water that puddles on ice floes is liquid below 0°C, because the ice is less saline than seawater, the liquid on the floes has more concentrated salinity, keeping it liquid below what would be the freezing point under standard conditions. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2006, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resident-grammarians-how-does-sub-freezing-temperatures-sound-to-you/342425/16 "2006-02-01T05:37:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Can temperatures be below freezing? A temperature of 20 degrees is freezing, so what would sub-freezing be? No, a temperature of 20 degrees (Farenheit) is already frozen. Any freezing that’s going to happen, has already happened. At least, if we’re talking about fresh water. There’s some solution level of saltwater which would be freezing right at 20 F, but then, there are non-water substances which will freeze at any temperature you care to name. Fresh water is, I think, implicit in referring to a temperature as freezing. ---
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2006, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resident-grammarians-how-does-sub-freezing-temperatures-sound-to-you/342425/17 "2006-02-01T14:31:50Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > No, a temperature of 20 degrees (Farenheit) is already frozen. Any freezing that’s going to happen, has already happened. At least, if we’re talking about fresh water. But no one says “frozen temperatures.” It doesn’t make sense. “Freezing temperatures” implies that it’s cold enough to freeze water, but leaves open the actual thermometer reading below 32 F. Again, I concede. May my challengers sub-freeze in hell. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2006, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resident-grammarians-how-does-sub-freezing-temperatures-sound-to-you/342425/18 "2006-02-01T15:28:04Z")
Would it sound right to say “Sub-freezing wins…fatality”?