# Residential intermittent electrical problem **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 26, 2011, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/residential-intermittent-electrical-problem/607402 "2011-12-26T05:30:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/residential-intermittent-electrical-problem/607402/41 "2011-12-28T05:45:19Z")
> [@gmak1520](#): > > Well, I guess I thought a new panel included all the breakers necessary? Are you saying that the replacement panel is empty, and must be populated with the breakers of choice/need? What’s IANA? No, it won’t come with breakers (not any I’ve ever seen). IANA=I Am Not A(n) The diagnostic part might be fun, but you really have to change that panel. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/residential-intermittent-electrical-problem/607402/42 "2011-12-28T05:49:57Z")
> [@gmak1520](#): > > Well, just to reiterate the tester instructions. It says to unplug the entire outlet before > plugging in the tester. I’m sure that’s a general warning for novice use, but that’s the > drill. That is to eliminate any feedback voltage. If 2&3 stay light while it is running that is normal. If any other change there is an outlet or power problem. Again I say you need a votlage tester to read what is really happening. ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/residential-intermittent-electrical-problem/607402/43 "2011-12-28T05:51:09Z")
> [@gmak1520](#): > > Well, I guess I thought a new panel included all the breakers necessary? Are you saying that the replacement panel is empty, and must be populated with the breakers of choice/need? What’s IANA? breaker boxes for a main box would have a main breaker and empty spots for breakers to feed circuits. this is your case. breaker boxes for a sub panel, to split off additional circuits from a cable, would only have empty spots for breakers to feed circuits. you may see these is stores and this is not what you need. IANA stands for "I am not a’ when referring to IANAdoctor, IANAlawyer, IANAelectrician when giving an opinion as a nonperfessional. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/residential-intermittent-electrical-problem/607402/44 "2011-12-28T05:55:19Z")
Missed the edit window: But I haven’t bought a panel in 15 years, so I looked at the Home Depot site. There was at least one panel that came with a few breakers. But you’ll probably need more, and I doubt any come with the 240V breakers you need for an electric stove, clothes dryer, water heater, electric baseboards, welder, stone saw, or dust collector. (maybe you don’t need as many 240V outlets as I do) ---
**Author:** ![gmak1520](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ea666f/32.png) [@gmak1520](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gmak1520)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/residential-intermittent-electrical-problem/607402/45 "2011-12-28T05:57:05Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > er, you don’t have aluminum wiring, do you? > > and NEC= National Electrical Code. No, I don’t think so. When I replaced the 2 outlets the wire was copper. ---
**Author:** ![gmak1520](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ea666f/32.png) [@gmak1520](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gmak1520)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/residential-intermittent-electrical-problem/607402/46 "2011-12-28T05:58:58Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > No, it won’t come with breakers (not any I’ve ever seen). > > IANA=I Am Not A(n) > > The diagnostic part might be fun, but you really have to change that panel. thanks, that seems like the general opinion. ---
**Author:** ![gmak1520](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ea666f/32.png) [@gmak1520](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gmak1520)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/residential-intermittent-electrical-problem/607402/47 "2011-12-28T06:00:53Z")
> [@Snnipe\_70E](#): > > That is to eliminate any feedback voltage. If 2&3 stay light while it is running that is normal. If any other change there is an outlet or power problem. Again I say you need a votlage tester to read what is really happening. Probably can be done while the appliance is active? ---
**Author:** ![gmak1520](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ea666f/32.png) [@gmak1520](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gmak1520)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/residential-intermittent-electrical-problem/607402/48 "2011-12-28T06:05:05Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Missed the edit window: > > But I haven’t bought a panel in 15 years, so I looked at the Home Depot site. There was at least one panel that came with a few breakers. But you’ll probably need more, and I doubt any come with the 240V breakers you need for an electric stove, clothes dryer, water heater, electric baseboards, welder, stone saw, or dust collector. (maybe you don’t need as many 240V outlets as I do) Well I have a double oven, dryer. A dishwasher we don’t use, and an electric range. I know the double oven is 2??A single circuit. Maybe the dryer and electric range. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/residential-intermittent-electrical-problem/607402/49 "2011-12-28T06:06:23Z")
> [@gmak1520](#): > > Probably can be done while the appliance is active? Yes ---
**Author:** ![Terry\_Kennedy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@Terry\_Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terry_Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/residential-intermittent-electrical-problem/607402/50 "2011-12-28T06:19:39Z")
> [@gmak1520](#): > > Oh, it’s FPE alright. I just verified that without doubt. No question. The house was built in 1974. Ok. Then it is in your best interest to replace it, whether or not it is the cause of the current (no pun intended) problem. [This site](http://www.inspectapedia.com/fpe/FPEArticles.htm) has been leading the way in trying to get the word out about FPE panels. Over 50 of the breakers [Dr. Aronstein tested](http://www.inspectapedia.com/fpe/FPE-Hazards-Revised-070525.pdf) came from me, as I started saving the “guts” of panels I replaced to send to him. ---
**Author:** ![gmak1520](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ea666f/32.png) [@gmak1520](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gmak1520)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/residential-intermittent-electrical-problem/607402/51 "2011-12-28T06:24:19Z")
OK, as Rick, from 12/27 @ 23:03 requested… I ran some water in the microwave for 65s, while I waited for the outlet to go dead. I did this test 4 times, and each time the microwave’s cycle completed without fault. The last time I did yank the microwave’s plug just as it was completing and stabbed in the tester. I still received #1=off, and #2 & #3=on. I just did this primarily to see how long it would take me to swap the plug with the tester. As an unrelated comment, during this issue, we had been running the microwave in the same physical space in front of the bad outlet. But, plugged into a lawn & garden extension cord of probably 50 feet. Due to all that resistance, I can really hear the microwave straining for power after it’s started. The extension cord is routed out of the kitchen into the dining room, on another circuit. This was much easier than toting the microwave from plug to plug once the failure happened. I’m gonna’ leave the microwave plugged to the bad outlet for a while and see what happens. It’s like I’m starting over. In the interim, I’ll do some checking on the panel replacement. I’ll post my electrical diagnosis results when/if I have progress to report. Thanks again for all the attention and support. gmak ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/residential-intermittent-electrical-problem/607402/52 "2011-12-28T07:12:15Z")
**gmak** , I may be overstepping here, but it sounds like you’re checking for a gas leak with an open flame. I don’t recommend running a microwave on an extension cord plugged into a problem outlet connected to that incendiary device that is your breaker box. Sorry if I’m wrong about that. ---
**Author:** ![gmak1520](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ea666f/32.png) [@gmak1520](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gmak1520)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/residential-intermittent-electrical-problem/607402/53 "2011-12-28T17:25:04Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > **gmak** , I may be overstepping here, but it sounds like you’re checking for a gas leak with an open flame. I don’t recommend running a microwave on an extension cord plugged into a problem outlet connected to that incendiary device that is your breaker box. Sorry if I’m wrong about that. I understand. But, the microwave/extension cord combo is only in use after the faulty outlet has gone cold. The extension cord routes through the kitchen, into the next room to use a known “good” outlet. When I’m using the microwave to induce failure of the “bad” outlet, the extension cord is not used. The extension cord simply allows continued microwave use without having to tote the appliance to another outlet. Right now, I have used the microwave many times this morning(plugged directly into the bad outlet) without fail. Of course, the weather here is cool, bright, and dry, if my suggestion of a cold, and wet environment really has any related effect. But, I thought of another, hopefully simple question… I have another one of these FPE breaker panels outside, that services only the AC condenser unit. It only has the AC circuit breaker. Should this panel be considered in the FPE warning, and replaced as well? Thanks, gmak ---
**Author:** ![gmak1520](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ea666f/32.png) [@gmak1520](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gmak1520)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/residential-intermittent-electrical-problem/607402/54 "2011-12-28T17:29:22Z")
> [@Terry\_Kennedy](#): > > Ok. Then it is in your best interest to replace it, whether or not it is the cause of the current (no pun intended) problem. > > [This site](http://www.inspectapedia.com/fpe/FPEArticles.htm) has been leading the way in trying to get the word out about FPE panels. Over 50 of the breakers [Dr. Aronstein tested](http://www.inspectapedia.com/fpe/FPE-Hazards-Revised-070525.pdf) came from me, as I started saving the “guts” of panels I replaced to send to him. Thanks for that reference Terry. I’ll read through it more carefully this evening. But, of course, we know what it’s going to say. I guess my panel may wind up as a donor specimen. gmak ---
**Author:** ![gmak1520](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ea666f/32.png) [@gmak1520](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gmak1520)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/residential-intermittent-electrical-problem/607402/55 "2011-12-28T17:33:20Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Do both outlets lose power at the same time? > > And being in a kitchen, is one of the outlets a GFCI receptacle? Yes, they both go cold concurrently. There are no GFCI outlets in this house. gmak ---
**Author:** ![gmak1520](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ea666f/32.png) [@gmak1520](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gmak1520)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/residential-intermittent-electrical-problem/607402/56 "2011-12-28T17:38:36Z")
I hope I’ve responded adequately to everyone’s helpful questions/comments. If I missed someone, I really didn’t intend to. I’ll do some more testing this evening, but it looks like I’m just resigned to a full panel replace. The FPE panel warning explanation text, provided by Terry, specifically states not to simply replace faulty breakers. I’ll post any progress/details further in this continuing saga. gmak ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/residential-intermittent-electrical-problem/607402/57 "2011-12-28T20:30:59Z")
> [@gmak1520](#): > > I hope I’ve responded adequately to everyone’s helpful questions/comments. > > If I missed someone, I really didn’t intend to. I’ll do some more testing this evening, but it looks like I’m just resigned to a full panel replace. The FPE panel warning explanation text, provided by Terry, specifically states not to simply replace faulty breakers. I’ll post any progress/details further in this continuing saga. > > gmak What city do you live in, if I may ask. I’m a sparky and would take a looksee if you are close by. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/residential-intermittent-electrical-problem/607402/58 "2011-12-28T20:54:57Z")
My parents had a similar problem in their house. It turned out there was a bad splice in the line from the breaker panel to the outlet. The splice ran across the roof of our basement garage. Whenever the garage door was raised or lowered it would bump the splice, sometimes disconnecting it , sometimes reengaging it. I forgot what sequence of events lead me to find the problem…probably noticing on one occasion that the outlet kicked out at the same time the garage door was raised. So, it’s probably something weird, you’ll find it eventually. ---
**Author:** ![gmak1520](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ea666f/32.png) [@gmak1520](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gmak1520)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/residential-intermittent-electrical-problem/607402/59 "2011-12-28T21:49:32Z")
> [@Uncommon\_Sense](#): > > What city do you live in, if I may ask. I’m a sparky and would take a looksee if you are close by. I’m in the 75214 area - Dallas Texas ---
**Author:** ![gmak1520](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ea666f/32.png) [@gmak1520](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gmak1520)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/residential-intermittent-electrical-problem/607402/60 "2011-12-28T21:56:19Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > My parents had a similar problem in their house. > > It turned out there was a bad splice in the line from the breaker panel to the outlet. The splice ran across the roof of our basement garage. Whenever the garage door was raised or lowered it would bump the splice, sometimes disconnecting it , sometimes reengaging it. I forgot what sequence of events lead me to find the problem…probably noticing on one occasion that the outlet kicked out at the same time the garage door was raised. > > So, it’s probably something weird, you’ll find it eventually. I’m not sure of the wiring route, but if it’s above it’s probably right over the garage. But, there’s a ceiling between the garage door and the attic. Yes, it will be eventually found, but I’m just not sure when. It’s really not the inconvenient, but quite frustrating, [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/residential-intermittent-electrical-problem/607402.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/residential-intermittent-electrical-problem/607402.md?page=4)