# Resolved: An order to fire upon and kill unarmed American citizens would be illegal and refused **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 2, 2020, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-an-order-to-fire-upon-and-kill-unarmed-american-citizens-would-be-illegal-and-refused/854951 "2020-06-02T23:33:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2020, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-an-order-to-fire-upon-and-kill-unarmed-american-citizens-would-be-illegal-and-refused/854951/21 "2020-06-03T04:43:05Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Would you consider the White House grounds “public spaces”? > > Leaving aside the 82nd Airborne shooting people in The Mall, what about a mob of unarmed people rushing the White House? If you were in command what would you tell your Company to do if they were charged with protecting the White House? A hypothetical event on one side does not, in any way, excuse the very real excesses that have occurred on the other side. I just saw a video of a military _medical_ helicopter used as a weapon to brush back unarmed civilians, flying so low as to bend, and even _break_, tree branches. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2020, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-an-order-to-fire-upon-and-kill-unarmed-american-citizens-would-be-illegal-and-refused/854951/22 "2020-06-03T04:49:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > A hypothetical event on one side does not, in any way, excuse the very real excesses that have occurred on the other side. Of course not. I’m simply interested in your thoughts on what you would do in that situation. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2020, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-an-order-to-fire-upon-and-kill-unarmed-american-citizens-would-be-illegal-and-refused/854951/23 "2020-06-03T04:53:35Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Of course not. I’m simply interested in your thoughts on what you would do in that situation. That would depend on the reason the unarmed populace was rushing the White House. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2020, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-an-order-to-fire-upon-and-kill-unarmed-american-citizens-would-be-illegal-and-refused/854951/24 "2020-06-03T04:55:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That would depend on the reason the unarmed populace was rushing the White House. How would you know? How could you find out? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2020, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-an-order-to-fire-upon-and-kill-unarmed-american-citizens-would-be-illegal-and-refused/854951/25 "2020-06-03T05:03:39Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Depends on the scale of the fight. If it’s a full blown insurrection or civil war of course unarmed folks are going to be targeted and killed if they are vital to the opposition’s war effort. That’s how wars are won and insurrections ended. If it is a mostly peaceful group with one or two armed rabble rousers strafing with an A-10 would be vastly disproportionate. > > It doesn’t matter if this is how you think the world should be this is how the world is. I don’t think the current protests and/or riots rise to the status of a war by any reasonable standard. Let’s take a scenario that American troops might be facing in the next week or so. They’ve been deployed in an American city with regular infantry weapons. They observe a crowd of people breaking store windows and stealing goods from the store. They do not observe any threat to people, including themselves. What do you feel their orders should be? 1. Stand by unless they observe people in danger. 2. Act to arrest people and take them into custody. 3. Shoot to break up the crowd and stop the property crimes that are occurring. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2020, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-an-order-to-fire-upon-and-kill-unarmed-american-citizens-would-be-illegal-and-refused/854951/26 "2020-06-03T05:06:12Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Let’s take a scenario that American troops might be facing in the next week or so. They’ve been deployed in an American city with regular infantry weapons. They observe a crowd of people breaking store windows and stealing goods from the store. They do not observe any threat to people, including themselves. What are their Rules of Engagement? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2020, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-an-order-to-fire-upon-and-kill-unarmed-american-citizens-would-be-illegal-and-refused/854951/27 "2020-06-03T05:40:47Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I don’t think the current protests and/or riots rise to the status of a war by any reasonable standard. > > Let’s take a scenario that American troops might be facing in the next week or so. They’ve been deployed in an American city with regular infantry weapons. They observe a crowd of people breaking store windows and stealing goods from the store. They do not observe any threat to people, including themselves. > > What do you feel their orders should be? > > 1. Stand by unless they observe people in danger. > > 2. Act to arrest people and take them into custody. > > 3. Shoot to break up the crowd and stop the property crimes that are occurring. Assist the police in arresting. If the police are completely incapable or aren’t doing anything due to local political orders then arrest. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2020, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-an-order-to-fire-upon-and-kill-unarmed-american-citizens-would-be-illegal-and-refused/854951/28 "2020-06-03T05:45:15Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Assist the police in arresting. If the police are completely incapable or aren’t doing anything due to local political orders then arrest. What a great way to get your ass gassed for interfering. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2020, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-an-order-to-fire-upon-and-kill-unarmed-american-citizens-would-be-illegal-and-refused/854951/29 "2020-06-03T05:53:09Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Assist the police in arresting. If the police are completely incapable or aren’t doing anything due to local political orders then arrest. I’m curious what power you think the military has to arrest people. When I was in the Air Force, do you think I could just arrest people? What lawful orders do you think I could have received that would enable me to just arrest people? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2020, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-an-order-to-fire-upon-and-kill-unarmed-american-citizens-would-be-illegal-and-refused/854951/30 "2020-06-03T06:11:15Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I don’t think the current protests and/or riots rise to the status of a war by any reasonable standard. > > Let’s take a scenario that American troops might be facing in the next week or so. They’ve been deployed in an American city with regular infantry weapons. They observe a crowd of people breaking store windows and stealing goods from the store. They do not observe any threat to people, including themselves. > > What do you feel their orders should be? > > 1. Stand by unless they observe people in danger. > > 2. Act to arrest people and take them into custody. > > 3. Shoot to break up the crowd and stop the property crimes that are occurring. Depending on the circumstances and the orders, it could be quite properly any of the 3. When there is an out of control mob (and I cannot believe I have to tell a former prison guard this) it rarely remains limited to property crimes. You start seeing assaults, violence, sexual violence, arson. But come on shooting **at** a crowd is one thing. Shooting a few round in the air to scare and disperse people is another. The former would be a very extreme situation (though in an era of general lawlessness, one that might be reached fairly quickly), the other much more of a regular occurrence. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2020, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-an-order-to-fire-upon-and-kill-unarmed-american-citizens-would-be-illegal-and-refused/854951/31 "2020-06-03T06:14:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Public spaces are not military “positions”. What kind of an ignorant statement is that? If a looting mob is attacking a hospital? Or a school? A chruch? Or group of offices? Or the warehouses in the docks? I know you are all labouring under some sort of American exceptionalism, that somehow American mobs are different and peace-loving, but in a time when a breakdown of law and order, rioters and mobs are uncontrollable, despite the best intentions of the organisers. That is true anywhere, no matter what the rioters nationality. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2020, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-an-order-to-fire-upon-and-kill-unarmed-american-citizens-would-be-illegal-and-refused/854951/32 "2020-06-03T06:20:55Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I’m curious what power you think the military has to arrest people. When I was in the Air Force, do you think I could just arrest people? What lawful orders do you think I could have received that would enable me to just arrest people? > **[Insurrection Act of 1807](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurrection_Act_of_1807#:~:text=The%20Insurrection%20Act%20of%201807,as%20to%20suppress%20civil%20disorder%2C)** > > The Insurrection Act of 1807 is a United States federal law that empowers the president of the United States to deploy U.S. military and federalized National Guard troops within the United States in particular circumstances, such as to suppress civil disorder, insurrection, or rebellion. > The act provides a "statutory exception" to the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878, which limits the use of military personnel under federal command for law enforcement purposes within the United States. > Before inv... The article is not long. Secondly, the Coast Guard could do it. Which would be sort of funny to see. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2020, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-an-order-to-fire-upon-and-kill-unarmed-american-citizens-would-be-illegal-and-refused/854951/33 "2020-06-03T06:24:48Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Assist the police in arresting. If the police are completely incapable or aren’t doing anything due to local political orders then arrest. I feel this would run into practical problems. Our troops are not trained for police work and they don’t have the proper equipment or facilities for it. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2020, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-an-order-to-fire-upon-and-kill-unarmed-american-citizens-would-be-illegal-and-refused/854951/34 "2020-06-03T06:45:39Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I’m curious what power you think the military has to arrest people. When I was in the Air Force, do you think I could just arrest people? What lawful orders do you think I could have received that would enable me to just arrest people? You had the power to arrest a person when you saw a public offense committed or attempted in your presence or the person arrested committed a felony, although not in your presence or when a felony had been committed, and you had reasonable cause for believing the person arrested to have committed it. Of course the guy/gal flipping burgers at the nearest McDonalds also had that power, its called citizens arrest. 😉 Most military arrests in the course of law enforcement are just that, citizens arrests, and like citizens, they are supposed to hand over the arrested person to the police as soon as possible. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2020, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-an-order-to-fire-upon-and-kill-unarmed-american-citizens-would-be-illegal-and-refused/854951/35 "2020-06-03T11:21:18Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Depends on the scale of the fight. No it doesn’t. It’s illegal to consciously target non-threatening civilians, regardless of whether you think it’s routinely done out of convenience. Now… are civilian collateral casualties always criminal? No, of course not, otherwise it wouldn’t be possible to bomb a munitions factory or anything that had been intentionally surrounded by human shields. Can soldiers fire on unarmed civilians who are advancing toward their position with apparently hostile intent? Yes, there is an obligation for the force to protect itself. This is a murky area where there’s the most potential for abuse. But no, you can’t specifically target unarmed civilians who aren’t threatening anybody or situated around a military target. That’s a crime. > [@](#): > > It doesn’t matter if this is how you think the world should be this is how the world is. What matters are the laws of warfare, which are taught to every US recruit during induction training. It’s clear you’ve never served and never been trained in this law, so you should probably sit this one out. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2020, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-an-order-to-fire-upon-and-kill-unarmed-american-citizens-would-be-illegal-and-refused/854951/36 "2020-06-03T12:35:52Z")
Kent State - Students were fired upon and killed. No soldier refused to fire. There was no accountability afterward. > **[Kent State shootings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings)** > > The Kent State shootings, also known as the May 4 massacre and the Kent State massacre, were the killings of four and wounding of nine other unarmed Kent State University students by the Ohio National Guard on May 4, 1970, in Kent, Ohio, 40 mi (64 km) south of Cleveland. The killings took place during a peace rally opposing the expanding involvement of the Vietnam War into Cambodia by United States military forces as well as protesting the National Guard presence on campus. The incident Twenty... ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2020, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-an-order-to-fire-upon-and-kill-unarmed-american-citizens-would-be-illegal-and-refused/854951/37 "2020-06-03T12:44:30Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Kent State - Students were fired upon and killed. No soldier refused to fire. There was no accountability afterward. > > [Kent State shootings - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings) Is your position that they were RIGHT to shoot unarmed college kid? Is it your position that the federal government was RIGHT to drop charges? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2020, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-an-order-to-fire-upon-and-kill-unarmed-american-citizens-would-be-illegal-and-refused/854951/38 "2020-06-03T13:18:43Z")
My post is a response to the OP: Kent State answers the question - US troops will fire on unarmed civilians Dropping charges in the Kent case confirms that it is Government policy It’s history, not a value judgement on my part. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2020, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-an-order-to-fire-upon-and-kill-unarmed-american-citizens-would-be-illegal-and-refused/854951/39 "2020-06-03T13:32:34Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Got it. I thought that was a weird objection, but didn’t notice the wording in the title. > [**Rickjay** actually appears to be correct in his pedantry](https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml): after a paragraph discussing various war crimes, it states: > > It looks like [Crimes against humanity](https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/crimes-against-humanity.shtml) might be the appropriate term: > > So, if the military were commanded to fire on civilian protestors in multiple places as part of a governmental policy, there’s a pretty strong case that that’s a crime against humanity. I’d say so. What’s interesting though is the OP title’s claim thayt it WOULD bne refused. In fact, I am certain it would not. If ordered to shoot unarmed civilians, almost all U.S. soldiers will obey. I know it’s nice to fantasize that they’d collectively say “No sir, that’s an illegal order.” Sadly it’s not so. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.winston_oboogie/32/2945_2.png) [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Winston_OBoogie)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2020, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-an-order-to-fire-upon-and-kill-unarmed-american-citizens-would-be-illegal-and-refused/854951/40 "2020-06-03T13:45:22Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Our troops are not trained for police work and they don’t have the proper equipment or facilities for it. And, yet, our police forces are increasingly being equipped with military materials, almost as if they are expected to be more like soldiers and less like policemen… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-an-order-to-fire-upon-and-kill-unarmed-american-citizens-would-be-illegal-and-refused/854951.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-an-order-to-fire-upon-and-kill-unarmed-american-citizens-would-be-illegal-and-refused/854951.md?page=3)