# Resolved: Atheism is not a religion, and therefore not a fundamentalist one. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2004, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-atheism-is-not-a-religion-and-therefore-not-a-fundamentalist-one/254572 "2004-07-11T16:23:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-atheism-is-not-a-religion-and-therefore-not-a-fundamentalist-one/254572/21 "2004-07-11T17:51:42Z")
It should be noted where I disagree with your “premise” (especially the abusrdly stupid “resolved” you put in front of it) - I agree that atheism is not a religion. By definition, it is the lack of religion. I, therefore, do agree that it is not a fundamentalist religion - it is a fundamentalist belief or point of view. Your premise is flawed because you refuse to accept the term “fundamentalist” applying to anything outside of religion. I’m sorry that your mindset is so narrow, but perhaps we can open that up today. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-atheism-is-not-a-religion-and-therefore-not-a-fundamentalist-one/254572/22 "2004-07-11T17:52:59Z")
> [@pool](#): > > If it is just the case of adhering to principles that the followers swear and preach to constantly wouldn’t virtually all religions be fundamentalists? No. Re-read the definition of “fundamentalist.” ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-atheism-is-not-a-religion-and-therefore-not-a-fundamentalist-one/254572/23 "2004-07-11T17:54:59Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > …especially the abusrdly stupid “resolved” you put in front of it… This doesn’t mean what you seem to think it means. In any classical debate, this is how the question on the table is presented. The form just isn’t followed very often on these boards. It doesn’t mean that **trandallt** thinks that the question has been settled, one way or the other. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-atheism-is-not-a-religion-and-therefore-not-a-fundamentalist-one/254572/24 "2004-07-11T17:55:56Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It’s not a young idea by any stretch. Knew that would be nitpicked–but to nitpick back: Said “movement” not idea. And since there still isn’t anyone who has formed a religion called Atheism–it’s quite young. ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-atheism-is-not-a-religion-and-therefore-not-a-fundamentalist-one/254572/25 "2004-07-11T17:56:14Z")
> [@](#): > > and atheists have never “left” the belief that there is no god so how would they return to this belief? You did not attempt to answer this part of my question ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-atheism-is-not-a-religion-and-therefore-not-a-fundamentalist-one/254572/26 "2004-07-11T17:56:45Z")
> [@trandallt](#): > > I suppose if you want to tweak the definition a little the one principle of atheism could be considered dogma I, sir, tweak no definitions. > [@](#): > > I submit that is is so different from religious dogma as to be another breed of cat entirely. Dogma is dogma. _shrugs_ > [@](#): > > Here is the crucial difference–religious dogma brooks no questioning. By definition, religious dogma must be accepted as true with no justification needed. By contrast, an atheist is simply someone who rejects the idea of God because insufficient evidence has been produced to believe otherwise. Both are based on observations. Theists don’t believe in god just to be theists. They believe in god because they observe it, just as atheists disbelieve because they have not yet observed it. > [@](#): > > It is perfectly acceptable for an atheist to question the one principle of atheism It is also perfectly acceptable for a theist to question the dogma of their religion. We do it all the time. It is called theology. Or are you defining “religion” as narrowly as “fundamentalism”? ---
**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-atheism-is-not-a-religion-and-therefore-not-a-fundamentalist-one/254572/27 "2004-07-11T17:57:28Z")
> [@trandallt](#): > > In religion that is not the case. You should get out and meet more Unitarians. Jews are also encouraged to question central tenets of their faith. I once read an ethicist’s response to a Rabbi who had completely lost his faith, and after studying relevant Jewish scripture concluded that, in all good conscience, _an atheist Rabbi can still do his job_. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-atheism-is-not-a-religion-and-therefore-not-a-fundamentalist-one/254572/28 "2004-07-11T17:58:19Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > A Cubs fan has a fundamental principle - the Cubs are great. And a Cubs fan who doesn’t adhere to that principle isn’t really a Cubs fan at all. That’s my quarrel with this definition of fundamentalism. What would a non-fundamentalist Cubs fan be like? Someone who roots for the Royals? ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-atheism-is-not-a-religion-and-therefore-not-a-fundamentalist-one/254572/29 "2004-07-11T17:59:46Z")
> [@Early Out](#): > > And a Cubs fan who doesn’t adhere to that principle isn’t really a Cubs fan at all. That’s my quarrel with this definition of fundamentalism. What would a non-fundamentalist Cubs fan be like? Someone who roots for the Royals? Someone who likes and roots for the Cubs but doesn’t own a full jersey and signed baseball bats? Man, atheists view the world in such a black and white way. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-atheism-is-not-a-religion-and-therefore-not-a-fundamentalist-one/254572/30 "2004-07-11T18:02:08Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > I’m sorry you are having such a hard time of this. > > What I’m having a hard time of is taking you seriously. I seem to detect a smug tone in your replies that undercuts your arguments and jeapordizes your credibility. > > > [@](#): > > > > "fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views " > > > > A Cubs fan has a fundamental principle - the Cubs are great. A true Cubs fan adheres to this principle even in defeat, and is intolerant of anyone who says that the Cubs suck, especially after a few beers. > > You are picking and choosing here. Can you show me where this Cubs fan has returned to fundamental principles, beers or no beers? > > > [@](#): > > > > Fundamentalism and fundamentalist behavior is not restricted to religious activity, whatever you may (fundamentally) believe. > > > > For example, your continued insistence that nothing outside of religion can be fundamental is, ironically, fundamentalist. Show me one instance of my insistence that nothing outside of religion can be fundamental. ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-atheism-is-not-a-religion-and-therefore-not-a-fundamentalist-one/254572/31 "2004-07-11T18:03:01Z")
> [@](#): > > and atheists have never “left” the belief that there is no god so how would they return to this belief? Zagadka im waiting… ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-atheism-is-not-a-religion-and-therefore-not-a-fundamentalist-one/254572/32 "2004-07-11T18:06:20Z")
> [@trandallt](#): > > Show me one instance of my insistence that nothing outside of religion can be fundamental. YOu did not say such directly, though you did ask how being a Cubs fan can be fundamentalist. You thus implied that nothing outside of religion could be fundamentalist. And you charge me with picking and choosing. And I resent the fact that someone who started a thread with “resolved:” calls me “smug” ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-atheism-is-not-a-religion-and-therefore-not-a-fundamentalist-one/254572/33 "2004-07-11T18:07:29Z")
> [@pool](#): > > Zagadka im waiting… Sorry, I tend to stop listening to people who nitpick plurals. Talk about grasping at straws. “characterized by a return to fundamental principles” Re-read that until cured. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-atheism-is-not-a-religion-and-therefore-not-a-fundamentalist-one/254572/34 "2004-07-11T18:07:59Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > Someone who likes and roots for the Cubs but doesn’t own a full jersey and signed baseball bats? Now we’re getting somewhere! Fundamentalism, then, is a matter of degree. How dedicated does the fan have to be before he crosses from being a fan to being a fundamentalist fan? How convinced of the Cubs’ greatness? You see where we’re going with this: the term “fundamentalist” doesn’t really mean much of anything. It’s in the eye of the beholder, and is slippery as can be. > [@](#): > > Man, atheists view the world in such a black and white way. I think atheists view the question of religion in a black and white way, simply because atheism has only one tenet, i.e., that there are no gods. That is, truly, a “yes” or “no” proposition. If you think there’s some middle ground, you’re not an atheist. (For the moment, let’s not get into the morass of “strong” atheism and “weak” atheism!) In other, nonreligious matters, atheists see all the shades of the rainbow. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-atheism-is-not-a-religion-and-therefore-not-a-fundamentalist-one/254572/35 "2004-07-11T18:09:20Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > And I resent the fact that someone who started a thread with “resolved:” calls me “smug” You persist in misunderstanding the use of “resolved.” IT DOESN’T MEAN WHAT YOU THINK IT MEANS. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-atheism-is-not-a-religion-and-therefore-not-a-fundamentalist-one/254572/36 "2004-07-11T18:10:07Z")
> [@Early Out](#): > > You persist in misunderstanding the use of “resolved.” IT DOESN’T MEAN WHAT YOU THINK IT MEANS. Pray tell, what do I think it means, and what does it mean? ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-atheism-is-not-a-religion-and-therefore-not-a-fundamentalist-one/254572/37 "2004-07-11T18:10:50Z")
> [@](#): > > A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism. exactly so what fundamental priniciples would said atheists be returning to, the only common beliefs atheists have is that they don’t believe in god, so if they abandoned this belief they wouldn’t be atheists. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-atheism-is-not-a-religion-and-therefore-not-a-fundamentalist-one/254572/38 "2004-07-11T18:11:01Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > Pray tell, what do I think it means, and what does it mean? Re-read post #23, please. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-atheism-is-not-a-religion-and-therefore-not-a-fundamentalist-one/254572/39 "2004-07-11T18:12:43Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > It should be noted where I disagree with your “premise” (especially the abusrdly stupid “resolved” you put in front of it) - I agree that atheism is not a religion. By definition, it is the lack of religion. I, therefore, do agree that it is not a fundamentalist religion - it is a fundamentalist belief or point of view. > > Your premise is flawed because you refuse to accept the term “fundamentalist” applying to anything outside of religion. I’m sorry that your mindset is so narrow, but perhaps we can open that up today. Well there you go again. If you and the rat in your pocket want to widen my mindset you would be well served to refrain from calling my terms “absurdly stupid” without some justification. For the record, I was attempting to present my case in the form of a classic debate. I may have been wrong, but I hardly think that your remark was called for. Show me in the OP or anywhere else that I refuse to accept the term “fundamentalist” as applying to anything outside of religion. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-atheism-is-not-a-religion-and-therefore-not-a-fundamentalist-one/254572/40 "2004-07-11T18:12:49Z")
> [@Early Out](#): > > Now we’re getting somewhere! Fundamentalism, then, is a matter of degree. How dedicated does the fan have to be before he crosses from being a fan to being a fundamentalist fan? How convinced of the Cubs’ greatness? > > You see where we’re going with this: the term “fundamentalist” doesn’t really mean much of anything. It’s in the eye of the beholder, and is slippery as can be. I agree. > [@](#): > > I think atheists view the question of religion in a black and white way, simply because atheism has only one tenet, i.e., that there are no gods. Funny, because when people tout their numbers of atheists outnumbering theists on the planet, there is one group suspiciously missing from the detailed groupings: agnostics. Where atheism and atheists fail is in that black and white view of “no god” and “supreme overlord with big white fluffy beard sitting on a cloud throwing thunderbolts” - they simply fail to comprehend a world view outside of their black and their white. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-atheism-is-not-a-religion-and-therefore-not-a-fundamentalist-one/254572.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-atheism-is-not-a-religion-and-therefore-not-a-fundamentalist-one/254572.md?page=3)