# Resolved: Atheism is not a religion, and therefore not a fundamentalist one. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2004, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-atheism-is-not-a-religion-and-therefore-not-a-fundamentalist-one/254572 "2004-07-11T16:23:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-atheism-is-not-a-religion-and-therefore-not-a-fundamentalist-one/254572/41 "2004-07-11T18:12:53Z")
Just because you don’t like my “nitpick” does not make it untrue :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-atheism-is-not-a-religion-and-therefore-not-a-fundamentalist-one/254572/42 "2004-07-11T18:14:24Z")
> [@Early Out](#): > > Re-read post #23, please. I’m sorry, I missed that post. I’m discussing with 4 people at once, and some things slip by. Very well, I’ll back down from that position and accept that definition. ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-atheism-is-not-a-religion-and-therefore-not-a-fundamentalist-one/254572/43 "2004-07-11T18:14:53Z")
exactly so what fundamental priniciples would said atheists be returning to, the only common beliefs atheists have is that they don’t believe in god, so if they abandoned this belief they wouldn’t be atheists. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-atheism-is-not-a-religion-and-therefore-not-a-fundamentalist-one/254572/44 "2004-07-11T18:15:25Z")
> [@pool](#): > > Just because you don’t like my “nitpick” does not make it untrue :rolleyes: Plurals? Come on. ---
**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-atheism-is-not-a-religion-and-therefore-not-a-fundamentalist-one/254572/45 "2004-07-11T18:15:41Z")
> [@Early Out](#): > > I think atheists view the question of religion in a black and white way, simply because atheism has only one tenet, i.e., that there are no gods. That is, truly, a “yes” or “no” proposition. If you think there’s some middle ground, you’re not an atheist. (For the moment, let’s not get into the morass of “strong” atheism and “weak” atheism!) In other, nonreligious matters, atheists see all the shades of the rainbow. What about other claims of the supernatural, or “religious” experiences that do not involve the existence of God, such as miracles? ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-atheism-is-not-a-religion-and-therefore-not-a-fundamentalist-one/254572/46 "2004-07-11T18:17:37Z")
I have seen you nitpick on less so suck it up and reply to post #43 ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-atheism-is-not-a-religion-and-therefore-not-a-fundamentalist-one/254572/47 "2004-07-11T18:18:35Z")
> [@pool](#): > > exactly so what fundamental priniciples would said atheists be returning to, the only common beliefs atheists have is that they don’t believe in god, so if they abandoned this belief they wouldn’t be atheists. They return to the belief that there is no god? As **Early Out** correctly pointed out, “fundamentalism, then, is a matter of degree… the term ‘fundamentalist’ doesn’t really mean much of anything. It’s in the eye of the beholder, and is slippery as can be.” There are degrees of belief and disbelief. A fundamentalist atheist takes such vehement disbelief in god that they attack theists as being “mentally ill” and such, as we have seen on this board. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-atheism-is-not-a-religion-and-therefore-not-a-fundamentalist-one/254572/48 "2004-07-11T18:21:06Z")
To call someone a “fundamentalist X” necessarily implies that there is such thing as a “non-fundamentalist X” - otherwise the very word is redundant. So what is a non-fundamentalist atheist? ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-atheism-is-not-a-religion-and-therefore-not-a-fundamentalist-one/254572/49 "2004-07-11T18:20:57Z")
> [@trandallt](#): > > If you and the rat in your pocket I am not familiar with that term. Would you care to define? > [@](#): > > want to widen my mindset you would be well served to refrain from calling my terms “absurdly stupid” without some justification. For the record, I was attempting to present my case in the form of a classic debate. I may have been wrong, but I hardly think that your remark was called for. You are right, I apologize. > [@](#): > > Show me in the OP or anywhere else that I refuse to accept the term “fundamentalist” as applying to anything outside of religion. When you asked how it could be applied to the Cubs. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-atheism-is-not-a-religion-and-therefore-not-a-fundamentalist-one/254572/50 "2004-07-11T18:22:13Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > To call someone a “fundamentalist X” necessarily implies that there is such thing as a “non-fundamentalist X” - otherwise the very word is redundant. So what is a non-fundamentalist atheist? Soemone who disbelieves in god, but does not preach their belief (or rather, disbelief), and does not consider theists “mentally ill” and such. There are degrees, and there are degrees. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-atheism-is-not-a-religion-and-therefore-not-a-fundamentalist-one/254572/51 "2004-07-11T18:22:35Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > Funny, because when people tout their numbers of atheists outnumbering theists on the planet, there is one group suspiciously missing from the detailed groupings: agnostics. Well, yeah. The difficulty arises in trying to divide the world into atheists and theists (alas, the very nature of the words drive us into this folly). The black and white division is between atheists and non-atheists (there’s a tortured construction for you!), the latter group comprising a whole host of beliefs, unresolved doubts, and so on. > [@](#): > > Where atheism and atheists fail is in that black and white view of “no god” and “supreme overlord with big white fluffy beard sitting on a cloud throwing thunderbolts” - they simply fail to comprehend a world view outside of their black and their white. No, sorry. Only the very naive atheist believes that religious people all think of their god(s) as Santa Claus without the red suit. The thinking atheist simply doesn’t believe that there’s any evidence for the existence of any “higher power,” in whatever form (or lack of form) you choose. Like I said, being an atheist, by definition, requires a certain binary approach. Either there _is_ some higher power (choose your version), or there _isn’t_. I don’t understand how this can be viewed as a “failing.” ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-atheism-is-not-a-religion-and-therefore-not-a-fundamentalist-one/254572/52 "2004-07-11T18:23:43Z")
I think that probably the best practical definition of a religion is “something you would be willing to die for–and where such desperation cannot be absolutely stated necessary to spare your life.” I.e. you may be willing to die for money–but money is not a religion because in the modern day economy, you will die without it. You may also be willing to die for God, music, or country–but it cannot definitively be declared that you would die if you were deprived of any of these things. (Of course, this depends on ones personal situation.) Of course, this brings down the number of religious people–at least of mainstream religions. Personally I would say that the number one religion in the world is Me, followed by My Family. And if you would be willing to change your religion because one of these was threatened–were you really all that great a believer? (Note that I rank the individual higher than the family not just for cynical reasons, but for the same reason that there are more 2nd streets than 1st streets in the US. 2nd wil always be 2nd, but 1st may also be “main” or whatever. Similarly, not everyone has a family nor necessarily cares about them, but everyone has himself) By which, I would again state that it would be hard to define atheism as a religion any more than monotheism. Christianity is a religion less because it has a god–but more because it has a set of teachings that many find important. Without those, you don’t have a religion, you just have a god. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-atheism-is-not-a-religion-and-therefore-not-a-fundamentalist-one/254572/53 "2004-07-11T18:24:28Z")
> [@Early Out](#): > > Like I said, being an atheist, by definition, requires a certain binary approach. Either there _is_ some higher power (choose your version), or there _isn’t_. Or you belief theists are mentally ill, or you don’t. Or you try to convince people to be atheists, or you don’t. Or… > [@](#): > > I don’t understand how this can be viewed as a “failing.” It can be a failing to understand other people and their beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-atheism-is-not-a-religion-and-therefore-not-a-fundamentalist-one/254572/54 "2004-07-11T18:25:02Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > Soemone who disbelieves in god, but does not preach their belief (or rather, disbelief), and does not consider theists “mentally ill” and such. But how is the belief that theists are mentally ill, or need to be preached to, a fundamental tenet of atheism? Is there some sort of atheist equivalent of the Bible that these fundamentalist atheists are following? ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-atheism-is-not-a-religion-and-therefore-not-a-fundamentalist-one/254572/55 "2004-07-11T18:26:40Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > But how is the belief that theists are mentally ill, or need to be preached to, a fundamental tenet of atheism? Is there some sort of atheist equivalent of the Bible that these fundamentalist atheists are following? Who (besides **trandallt** ) thinks you need a bible to be a fundamentalist? ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-atheism-is-not-a-religion-and-therefore-not-a-fundamentalist-one/254572/56 "2004-07-11T18:28:33Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > [defining “non-fundamentalist atheist”] Soemone who disbelieves in god, but does not preach their belief (or rather, disbelief), … Sort of a “don’t ask, don’t tell” approach to religious belief? If it applies to everyone, I’ll vote for it! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-atheism-is-not-a-religion-and-therefore-not-a-fundamentalist-one/254572/57 "2004-07-11T18:29:21Z")
> [@](#): > > A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism. there is only one fundamental belief that atheists hold to be considered an atheist, there is no return to fundamental principles because they have always had one singular belief that does not change ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-atheism-is-not-a-religion-and-therefore-not-a-fundamentalist-one/254572/58 "2004-07-11T18:29:27Z")
I, unfortunately, must be leaving for my uncle’s birthday party rather soon. I’m afraid I should not have entered into a debate of this depth knowing I had somewhere to be, but do continue on. I’ll try to reply when I return. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-atheism-is-not-a-religion-and-therefore-not-a-fundamentalist-one/254572/59 "2004-07-11T18:30:56Z")
> [@Early Out](#): > > Sort of a “don’t ask, don’t tell” approach to religious belief? If it applies to everyone, I’ll vote for it! 😃 Sounds good to me. ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2004, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-atheism-is-not-a-religion-and-therefore-not-a-fundamentalist-one/254572/60 "2004-07-11T18:32:06Z")
> [@](#): > > [defining “non-fundamentalist atheist”] Soemone who disbelieves in god, but does not preach their belief (or rather, disbelief), I believe Christians are supposed to witness so it would seem fundamentalism is a tenet of Christianity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-atheism-is-not-a-religion-and-therefore-not-a-fundamentalist-one/254572.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-atheism-is-not-a-religion-and-therefore-not-a-fundamentalist-one/254572.md?page=4)