# Resolved: Christmas should be rescinded as a national holiday in the U.S. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 1, 2005, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-christmas-should-be-rescinded-as-a-national-holiday-in-the-u-s/333553 "2005-12-01T14:31:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ponder\_Stibbons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponder_stibbons/32/343_2.png) [@Ponder\_Stibbons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponder_Stibbons)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-christmas-should-be-rescinded-as-a-national-holiday-in-the-u-s/333553/21 "2005-12-01T15:51:32Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Christmas is now celebrated as much – if not more – about Santa Claus than it is about Jesus. I don’t think Santa Claus in his current incarnation is a religious figure, regardless of his origins. So we rename it “Santa Day” or “Conspicuous Consumer Consumption Day”. But really, the holiday has so much _momentum_ behind it, even renaming it, let alone abolishing it, is extremely unlikely. Even the most die-hard (but politically savvy) athiest isn’t going to waste time on this because the effort is so monumental and the desired result is so neglible. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-christmas-should-be-rescinded-as-a-national-holiday-in-the-u-s/333553/22 "2005-12-01T15:52:39Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I don’t know what problem people seem to have with the actual word “Christmas”. Maybe it’s the name “Christ” in there? > > What good would calling it the winter festivus do, except infuriate the 85% or so of the country that is christian? What it would do is force the state to obey the Constitution and refrain from endorsing a specific religion. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-christmas-should-be-rescinded-as-a-national-holiday-in-the-u-s/333553/23 "2005-12-01T15:54:45Z")
Why should Christians be outraged if the name is changed on official language? No one is telling Christians what _they_ have to call it? How would they be injured or have their free practice abridged if the _goverment_ called it something else? ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-christmas-should-be-rescinded-as-a-national-holiday-in-the-u-s/333553/24 "2005-12-01T15:55:11Z")
Can anyone tell me when putting “resolved” in the title of an OP has ever had any sort of positive impact on any discussion? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-christmas-should-be-rescinded-as-a-national-holiday-in-the-u-s/333553/25 "2005-12-01T15:56:34Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The Establishment Clause prohibits the government from endorsing one religion over another. And allowing a national holiday–even one with a religious origin-- is NOT the same as endorsing one religion over another. This holiday can easily be justified on practical grounds, for the greater good of the populace. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-christmas-should-be-rescinded-as-a-national-holiday-in-the-u-s/333553/26 "2005-12-01T15:57:51Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > You need to do some research on the meaning of the Esablishment Clause. You seem to have a very shallow understanding of what it means. :rolleyes: Ah, the old classic: “I disagree with you therefore let me encourage you to go and find some enlightenment! When you come back I’m sure you’ll see the errors of your ways and finally agree with me.” > [@](#): > > Where is this “whacko, secularist left,” by the way? I’ve never seen it but I’d like to join. Most of the leftists I know are theists. It’s right here in this thread! Proposing that we rename Christmas to the “winter festival” or such is indeed the notion of someone on the wacko, secularist left. This is the kind of stuff that is way outside the mainstream and 99% of American’s out there would not only disagree, they would laugh at the notion. ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-christmas-should-be-rescinded-as-a-national-holiday-in-the-u-s/333553/27 "2005-12-01T16:01:28Z")
The OP misses a key point - the fact that the federal government declares thus and such a day a holiday imposes no obligation on the private sector to observe that holiday. The rest of us could go about our lives normally, and our employers could require us to work on Christmas, if they so chose - and thought they could get away with it. There are plenty of employers who don’t recognize Columbus Day, Veteran’s Day, and Martin Luther King Day, to name a few. So, it doesn’t affect the private sector. The question is, does shutting down a good deal of the public sector on Christmas constitute an endorsement of religion? I’d say probably not. Recognition that many/most government employees do not wish to work that day, combined with the tradition of granting other, decidedly secular, holidays, probably takes making Christmas a holiday outside of the Establishment Clause. Sua ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-christmas-should-be-rescinded-as-a-national-holiday-in-the-u-s/333553/28 "2005-12-01T16:01:53Z")
I certainly don’t see any entanglement of religious doctrines with how the national affairs are conducted in celebrating Christmas. What’s the problem? ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-christmas-should-be-rescinded-as-a-national-holiday-in-the-u-s/333553/29 "2005-12-01T16:13:44Z")
> [@SuaSponte](#): > > So, it doesn’t affect the private sector. The question is, does shutting down a good deal of the public sector on Christmas constitute an endorsement of religion? I’d say probably not. Recognition that many/most government employees do not wish to work that day, combined with the tradition of granting other, decidedly secular, holidays, probably takes making Christmas a holiday outside of the Establishment Clause. Agreed. That’s exactly why I say that it is observed for **practical** reasons, rather than exclusively religious ones. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-christmas-should-be-rescinded-as-a-national-holiday-in-the-u-s/333553/30 "2005-12-01T16:15:20Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The Establishment Clause prohibits the government from endorsing one religion over another. The stae is not allowed to say that Christianity is true (or not true) and is not allowed to grant special rights to Christians that it doesn’t grant to other religious groups. That, however, does not mean that the state can’t or shouldn’t make practical concessions to a religion. When a high school valedictorian is forbidden to talk about her religion in her graduation speech, or when Christian children are not allowed to read from the Bible when the teacher asks students to give a short reading from their favorite book, the cause of religious liberty is not served. Moreover, the state must be even-handed in such matters. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The majority is meaningless when it comes to establishment. Protecting the minority from the majority \* is \* the point of the 1st Amendment. It is just as important to protect the majority from minorities. What some minorities really want is the power to bully the majority. A large part of the first amendment purpose was to protect the majority from minorities–may I remind you that the religious right is a minority? I really do get tired of this “tyranny of the majority” mantra. Almost anyone can plausibly claim to belong to one minority or another. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-christmas-should-be-rescinded-as-a-national-holiday-in-the-u-s/333553/31 "2005-12-01T16:17:54Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Can anyone tell me when putting “resolved” in the title of an OP has ever had any sort of positive impact on any discussion? > > -Joe I agree with this. On the contrary, being a Doper too, it gets my hackles up and makes me want to disagree. In this case I genuinely disagree, for the reasons others mentioned. Not only that, I think we should get a day off for Diwali, too, and maybe a week off for Ramadan - I know it’s a month, but we can’t take a month off and some get time for Easter, don’t they? Which is much mor eof a religious holiday than Christmas nowadays. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-christmas-should-be-rescinded-as-a-national-holiday-in-the-u-s/333553/32 "2005-12-01T16:18:35Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Where is this “whacko, secularist left,” by the way? I’ve never seen it but I’d like to join. Most of the leftists I know are theists. I guess it’s invisible to the people who share its prejudices, just like the liberal bias in the mainstream news media that some folks around here claim not to see. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-christmas-should-be-rescinded-as-a-national-holiday-in-the-u-s/333553/33 "2005-12-01T16:18:55Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > :rolleyes: > > Ah, the old classic: “I disagree with you therefore let me encourage you to go and find some enlightenment! When you come back I’m sure you’ll see the errors of your ways and finally agree with me.” If you did some research you would find that the Establishment Clause prevents the government from doing a lot more than just literally establishing a state church. If you did any reading on the matter, I’m confident that you _would_ see the errors of your ways. > [@](#): > > It’s right here in this thread! Proposing that we rename Christmas to the “winter festival” or such is indeed the notion of someone on the wacko, secularist left. No one is proposing that “WE” do it. I’m only saying it should be changed in any official state language about the holiday. WE can call it whatever we want. Nothing would change in practice except the words on a few pieces of paper. > [@](#): > > This is the kind of stuff that is way outside the mainstream and 99% of American’s out there would not only disagree, they would laugh at the notion. Outside the mainstream does not mean wrong. The Constution says what it says. It can’t be overruled because of the ignorance of the majority. Do you watch a lot of Bill O’Reilly, by the way? He also spends a lot of time hiding under his bed waiting for the “secular forces” to attack. There is no conspiracy against Chrsitianity. Relax. Trying to keep the government in line is not the same as trying to abridge the free practice of individual citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-christmas-should-be-rescinded-as-a-national-holiday-in-the-u-s/333553/34 "2005-12-01T16:22:08Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > I guess it’s invisible to the people who share its prejudices, just like the liberal bias in the mainstream news media that some folks around here claim not to see. Or maybe they’re only visible to people who are already led by paranoid, irrational, persecution complexes. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-christmas-should-be-rescinded-as-a-national-holiday-in-the-u-s/333553/35 "2005-12-01T16:28:47Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Can anyone tell me when putting “resolved” in the title of an OP has ever had any sort of positive impact on any discussion? It shouldn’t have any impact whatsoever, positive or negative, as it is a traditional way to kick off a formal debate. It doesn’t even imply that the originator of the topic is pro or con - it’s just the standard opening line. In debate course in high school or college, this is usually the format followed. As in this hastily googled example: [http://www.econoclass.com/debatetopics.html](http://www.econoclass.com/debatetopics.html) As for the OP - it’s become a traditional holiday. I was raised by atheist Trotskyists and we _still_ observed Christmas :). - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-christmas-should-be-rescinded-as-a-national-holiday-in-the-u-s/333553/36 "2005-12-01T16:29:40Z")
December 25th has _always_ been some sort of holi/Holy-day in the northern Hemisphere - breaking the back of winter and all that (Stonehenge’s purpose, apparently, to the chagrin of the dickheads who celebrate the _summer_ solstice there.) So the date itself is all nice and inclusive. The _name_ just needs tweaking to allow anyone to put their preferred word before “mas”. **X** mas does just fine, especially if you pronounce the X “criss” as in “criss-cross”. (W)easily Resolved! ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-christmas-should-be-rescinded-as-a-national-holiday-in-the-u-s/333553/37 "2005-12-01T16:31:59Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > December 25th has _always_ been some sort of holi/Holy-day in the northern Hemisphere - breaking the back of winter and all that (Stonehenge’s purpose, apparently, to the chagrin of the dickheads who celebrate the _summer_ solstice there.) > > So the date itself is all nice and inclusive. The _name_ just needs tweaking to allow anyone to put their preferred word before “mas”. **X** mas does just fine, especially if you pronounce the X “criss” as in “criss-cross”. > > (W)easily Resolved! But the -mas part is derived from the word \* mass, \* meaning in this context a religious ceremony conducted by many Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-christmas-should-be-rescinded-as-a-national-holiday-in-the-u-s/333553/38 "2005-12-01T16:37:32Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > If you did some research you would find that the Establishment Clause prevents the government from doing a lot more than just literally establishing a state church. If you did any reading on the matter, I’m confident that you _would_ see the errors of your ways. What are you talking about? Not only did I not say the things which you seem to be referring to, but nobody else in this thread did either. > [@](#): > > No one is proposing that “WE” do it. I’m only saying it should be changed in any official state language about the holiday. WE can call it whatever we want. Nothing would change in practice except the words on a few pieces of paper. You know exactly what I meant. The “we” in my statement obviously refered to the government. If you’re only talking about changing a few words on a piece of paper then why does the change matter? > [@](#): > > Outside the mainstream does not mean wrong. The Constution says what it says. It can’t be overruled because of the ignorance of the majority. I’m not saying that the majority is always correct. It just happens to be in this case, though. You are wrong that the first ten words of the bill of rights prohibit the government from recognizing Christmas. > [@](#): > > Do you watch a lot of Bill O’Reilly, by the way? I don’t think anybody on the boards watches him as much as you seem to. You refer to him more often than anybody else does. > [@](#): > > There is no conspiracy against Chrsitianity. Relax. Trying to keep the government in line is not the same as trying to abridge the free practice of individual citizens. I am relaxed. I’m not a Christian. I’ve got no dog in this hunt. However, I’m perfectly capable of recognizing silly political correctness run wild. That’s what this is, pure and simple. It’s actually quite amusing that you think the government recognizing the Christmas holiday is a matter of being “out of line”. There’s plenty of actual real issues regarding religion and government that you could focus on. Why waste energy on this one? It’s A.) Something you’re never going to win. and B.) It makes you look like an anti-Christian nut. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-christmas-should-be-rescinded-as-a-national-holiday-in-the-u-s/333553/39 "2005-12-01T16:37:38Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > As for the OP - it’s become a traditional holiday. I was raised by atheist Trotskyists and we _still_ observed Christmas :). > > - Tamerlane As an atheist friend of mine said when challenged about his observance of Christmas, “Hell, I want the sun to come back.” ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2005, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-christmas-should-be-rescinded-as-a-national-holiday-in-the-u-s/333553/40 "2005-12-01T16:37:47Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > Christmas is a Christian holiday (despite how it’s been turned into a secular feeding frenzy at the mall). Therefore, it shouldn’t be set aside differently than any other religious holiday and should be rescinded as a national holiday in the United States. Separation of church and state and all that. What do you mean by “national holiday”? If you just mean a holiday that the whole nation observes, what’s that got to do with “state” or its separation from “church”? On the other hand, if you’re referring to the fact that the government shuts down on Christmas Day, so what? Members of any religion should be allowed a day off on their major holidays. And if the majority are members of that religion, it’s easier just to call it a day off for everybody. For instance, I wouldn’t see a problem with giving Jews the day off on Yom Kippur and, if that meant there would be hardly anybody left at work, with just closing down completely. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-christmas-should-be-rescinded-as-a-national-holiday-in-the-u-s/333553.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-christmas-should-be-rescinded-as-a-national-holiday-in-the-u-s/333553.md?page=3)