# Resolved: College athletes are employees (Sackos v. NCAA) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 2, 2015, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-college-athletes-are-employees-sackos-v-ncaa/729734 "2015-09-02T19:34:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-college-athletes-are-employees-sackos-v-ncaa/729734/41 "2015-09-03T00:01:44Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > They waste millions on sports while often, even generally, paying college instructors much less than high school teachers: You are refering to part time profs who work maybe a quarter of the hours of a high school teacher. And high school teachers cant gain tenure. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-college-athletes-are-employees-sackos-v-ncaa/729734/42 "2015-09-03T00:05:32Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Then you are essentially dooming half the college sports programs to non existence. Not necessarily. We could scrap athletic scholarships and make everyone pay tuition (which most student athletes already do) then pay them minimum wage. You mentioned capping athletic activities to 20 h/w. 20 h/w \* 40 w \* $7.25/h = $5800, which is around the average per-athlete scholarship value if we include the hundreds of thousand of student athletes who are already paying tuition to play sports. So it comes out a wash, on average. YMMV when it comes to specific programs. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-college-athletes-are-employees-sackos-v-ncaa/729734/43 "2015-09-03T00:17:30Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **madsircool** : > > Because they raise money for other students. Your analogy is insane. If that were the case, then why does nearly every college in the country charge its students (all of them, not just the ones on the sports teams) an athletics fee? We’re told that the athletics fee is necessary to support the athletics program, because it’s not profitable, and then we’re told that we have to have an athletic program, because it’s so profitable. Just get rid of it all, or at least scale it back to a level that can be self-supporting. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-college-athletes-are-employees-sackos-v-ncaa/729734/44 "2015-09-03T00:19:29Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > You are refering to part time profs who work maybe a quarter of the hours of a high school teacher. Where did you get that hours count? > [@madsircool](#): > > And high school teachers cant gain tenure. It depends where you live. See: [http://thehiddencostsoftenure.com/stories/?prcss=display&id=266539](http://thehiddencostsoftenure.com/stories/?prcss=display&id=266539) ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-college-athletes-are-employees-sackos-v-ncaa/729734/45 "2015-09-03T00:20:01Z")
I know I’m an outlier but I think that athletes in the sports that actually make money like football and basketball get paid by the exposure they get to the professional leagues. Sure Podunk State University doesn’t pay them but the do get paid when they sign their contract. If those athletes don’t like the system, then don’t play NCAA or NAIA sports and then try to get drafted. For the other sports, ummmm … they’re not making money. The athletes get paid by having to opportunity to play a sport funded by the big money-makers (see above). ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-college-athletes-are-employees-sackos-v-ncaa/729734/46 "2015-09-03T00:23:47Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I know I’m an outlier but I think that athletes in the sports that actually make money like football and basketball get paid by the exposure they get to the professional leagues. Sure Podunk State University doesn’t pay them but the do get paid when they sign their contract. If those athletes don’t like the system, then don’t play NCAA or NAIA sports and then try to get drafted. > > For the other sports, ummmm … they’re not making money. The athletes get paid by having to opportunity to play a sport funded by the big money-makers (see above). What about the other 98%+ of college athletes that do not play professionally after college? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-college-athletes-are-employees-sackos-v-ncaa/729734/47 "2015-09-03T00:28:12Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > And high school teachers cant gain tenure. Depends on the state/district. I still have my tenure from LAUSD although I havn’t taught there in almost a decade. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-college-athletes-are-employees-sackos-v-ncaa/729734/48 "2015-09-03T00:40:33Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Not necessarily. We could scrap athletic scholarships and make everyone pay tuition (which most student athletes already do) then pay them minimum wage. You mentioned capping athletic activities to 20 h/w. 20 h/w \* 40 w \* $7.25/h = $5800, which is around the average per-athlete scholarship value if we include the hundreds of thousand of student athletes who are already paying tuition to play sports. So it comes out a wash, on average. YMMV when it comes to specific programs. What I’d like to see is for DI schools to spin off their big-budget football and basketball programs into separate (probably non-profit) corporations. Negotiate a licensing fee for using the school’s name - this is the money that can support Title IX activities and the rest of the athletic department. The athletes who play for those teams become employees of that corporation; the corp leases the stadium, training facilities, etc. from the school. As a non-profit, the corp can still accept tax-deductible booster contributions, but its finances would exist separately and independently of the university’s. Those schools that adopted this structure could then form an NCAA-equivalent that could collectively bargain with their employees. Just like any other league, that CBA could include drug testing, salary caps, a fine/suspension/sanction structure, etc. The only thing it couldn’t do is “compensate” the athletes with $60,000 worth of something they really didn’t want in the first place. Not all schools would go this route, obviously, but that’s a feature rather than a bug. It means you have evenly matched teams playing against one another - Ohio State can’t pad their schedule with a game against the Little Sisters of the Poor, because LSOP opted out of the paid athlete system. Athletes who want to attend college and play football go to schools that haven’t set up those professional organizations; athletes who are going to college only as a stepping stone to the pros sign with the schools that have them. Everybody gets what they want out of the deal. > [@madsircool](#): > > You are refering to part time profs who work maybe a quarter of the hours of a high school teacher. And high school teachers cant gain tenure. Those part-time professors (and a lot of full time instructors) aren’t eligible for tenure; high school teachers in many states are eligible for teunure, although it’s a different kind of tenure than university faculty may have… ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-college-athletes-are-employees-sackos-v-ncaa/729734/49 "2015-09-03T00:45:24Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > What about the other 98%+ of college athletes that do not play professionally after college? Again limiting it to sports that make money, they are playing to expose themselves for the chance to play professionally. No different than me starting a new business and working for free to get some exposure and references. If it doesn’t turn into new jobs should I claim I was an employee because my plan didn’t work out like I planned? What I would like answered is what is the mindset for someone who knows the system and chooses to play women’s lacrosse or men’s water polo and THEN say they were taken advantage of. It’s different when you have to work unpaid through breaks a la Walmart or hourly employees being classified as exempt to avoid paying overtime. Those workers are being taken advantage of after the fact. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-college-athletes-are-employees-sackos-v-ncaa/729734/50 "2015-09-03T00:45:34Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Depends on the state/district. I still have my tenure from LAUSD although I havn’t taught there in almost a decade. TY to you and the others who have educated me and fought ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-college-athletes-are-employees-sackos-v-ncaa/729734/51 "2015-09-03T01:21:43Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Not necessarily. We could scrap athletic scholarships and make everyone pay tuition (which most student athletes already do) then pay them minimum wage. You mentioned capping athletic activities to 20 h/w. 20 h/w \* 40 w \* $7.25/h = $5800, which is around the average per-athlete scholarship value if we include the hundreds of thousand of student athletes who are already paying tuition to play sports. So it comes out a wash, on average. YMMV when it comes to specific programs. If you are going to pay them, you need to pay them more than minimum wage. Isn’t that what all you true blue capitalists espouse, a skill set, a computer technician makes more than a dishwasher. Well, playing college sports at the top level takes a lot more skill than washing dishes. Or if you want to be a real hard nosed capitalist, I guess you can pay the girls soccer team $2 an hour and pay the starting players at Univ of Alabama footbal about $500 an hour. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-college-athletes-are-employees-sackos-v-ncaa/729734/52 "2015-09-03T01:39:00Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > What I’d like to see is for DI schools to spin off their big-budget football and basketball programs into separate (probably non-profit) corporations. It doesn’t even need to be that complicated. Almost every program even close to generating profits or even making significant revenue has lots of boosters who donate to the school. The easiest and wisest thing to do would be to remove he NCAA prohibition that players cannot earn any meaningful income. They should allow athletes to obtain any “job” they want for any amount of money. This way, if Phil Knight wants to ensure Oregon has great teams, he can personally pay the players to be interns at whatever wage the market dictates they can demand. Good players with a valuable skill set will be paid a healthy wage, and no money has to be drawn from tax payer or school coffers. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-college-athletes-are-employees-sackos-v-ncaa/729734/53 "2015-09-03T02:12:19Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > If you are going to pay them, you need to pay them more than minimum wage. Isn’t that what all you true blue capitalists espouse, a skill set, a computer technician makes more than a dishwasher. Well, playing college sports at the top level takes a lot more skill than washing dishes. Most of them aren’t top athletes. Most of them pay to play. Is your proposal just for the ones who don’t? ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-college-athletes-are-employees-sackos-v-ncaa/729734/54 "2015-09-03T02:52:50Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > It doesn’t even need to be that complicated. Almost every program even close to generating profits or even making significant revenue has lots of boosters who donate to the school. The easiest and wisest thing to do would be to remove he NCAA prohibition that players cannot earn any meaningful income. They should allow athletes to obtain any “job” they want for any amount of money. This way, if Phil Knight wants to ensure Oregon has great teams, he can personally pay the players to be interns at whatever wage the market dictates they can demand. Good players with a valuable skill set will be paid a healthy wage, and no money has to be drawn from tax payer or school coffers. Except that just makes the competitive balance - which is already bad - worse. You still have schools that are haves playing schools that are have-nots, but you’re making the difference between the categories even bigger than it already is. A collectively bargained salary cap, though, puts all the teams that choose that option on the same level. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-college-athletes-are-employees-sackos-v-ncaa/729734/55 "2015-09-03T05:34:58Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > Except that just makes the competitive balance - which is already bad - worse. You still have schools that are haves playing schools that are have-nots, but you’re making the difference between the categories even bigger than it already is. A collectively bargained salary cap, though, puts all the teams that choose that option on the same level. There is little competitive balance in college sports anyway. That’s not even considering the fact that many top prospects are paid under the table already. Most importantly, competitive balance takes a back seat to fair compensation, and that rate should be set by a free market, not some arbitrary salary cap. There is zero reason a guy like Tim Tebow, when he was in college, should have been paid the same as his kicker or a soccer player. How is that fair? He is being compensated for his individual skills and marketability, not because he is an athlete generally speaking. Besides, there is enough money to pay recruits at the handful of competitive schools such that there is not going to be teams more lopsided than they are now. This is why the market for coaches is as fluid as it is. Dozens of schools would pay a top coach’s salary if s/he would come to their school. There is not a dearth of money, and the reality of the situation imposes a soft, natural max salary anyway since college players are only worth so much. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-college-athletes-are-employees-sackos-v-ncaa/729734/56 "2015-09-03T12:26:21Z")
> [@DinoR](#): > > If we apply those standards most student-athletes likely get fired and lose their scholarships. The “business” most of them are in loses money. How much money does the advertising arm of Apple make? You know, the part of the company that spends millions and millions to produce commercials and other content, then either gives it all away free or pays millions more for people to watch it? Athletics are not a closed business, they promote the school, and make the school more desirable for paying clients. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-college-athletes-are-employees-sackos-v-ncaa/729734/57 "2015-09-03T12:49:52Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I don’t know how many of each of those are employed for any sport, exactly, but yes, anyone working the concession stand is paid. Yes, there are maintenance people for the facilities and they are paid. The coaches are paid. The administrators are paid. The trainers are paid. The janitors are paid. And all contribute to the business that is college sports. > > Why shouldn’t the athletes, the primary generator of sports revenue, be paid as well? Because one group is getting scholarships. And for those who aren’t, no one is forcing them to play. I agree with the majority of posters here that this is a bad idea. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-college-athletes-are-employees-sackos-v-ncaa/729734/58 "2015-09-03T12:53:42Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Well, not really. As it stands, college football largely hurts football players by forcing them into an academic-tied training program that most of them are not interested in or suited for. If college football actually became an amateur sport, those who want to turn pro would be able to play in minor leagues that could actually compete for revenue. Right now they are all being squeezed out by the NFL and NCAA. Two things. One their are semi-pro leagues for football. Two, while an education might not be something that some athletes care about when they’re young and healthy, that changes quickly if they become injured to the point that their career is over or when they retire. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-college-athletes-are-employees-sackos-v-ncaa/729734/59 "2015-09-03T13:15:11Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > If they can’t sell enough tickets, then they shouldn’t be in the business of fielding a team. Why should professional sports be any different than any other business or industry? > > ETA: Heading off the inevitable: how exactly is college athletics not professional sports? The obvious answer is that professional sports teams don’t exist if they can’t make a profit. You’re idea would diminish the college experience by putting an end to all manner of sports teams: rugby teams, fencing teams, dance teams, golf teams, etc. I don’t think baseball teams even come close to paying for themselves. The only real income generators are men’s football and men’s basketball. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2015, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-college-athletes-are-employees-sackos-v-ncaa/729734/60 "2015-09-03T13:17:48Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > A win for all except the athletes, you mean. The athletes get to play. That’s a thing they _want_ to do. So, they benefit, too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-college-athletes-are-employees-sackos-v-ncaa/729734.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-college-athletes-are-employees-sackos-v-ncaa/729734.md?page=4)