Resolved: College athletes are employees (Sackos v. NCAA)

[Ruken]

@Snowboarder_Bo

What service is that?

Playing on a sports team, among others. I’ve paid to play on sports teams too, but not in college.

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@Ruken

Playing on a sports team, among others. I’ve paid to play on sports teams too, but not in college.

No, the players do not pay to be on a sports team. Do you have a cite to back up that assertion?

[Ruken]

@Ruken

I’ve paid to play on sports teams too, but not in college.

I take that back; I’d blocked out my brief soccer misadventure. Which I certainly paid for with my tuition money just like the majority of student athletes do.

[Robert163]

@DinoR

If we apply those standards most student-athletes likely get fired and lose their scholarships. The “business” most of them are in loses money. The University of Houston almost certainly lost money on women’s soccer even before considering scholarships. Aside from men’s football and basketball college sports generally lose money. Outside of the major conferences the extra money from revenue sports is mostly chewed up trying to make ends meet for the non-revenue sports. If costs go up then other cuts will have to follow.

Spoken like a true capitalist!

[Robert163]

@Snowboarder_Bo

I don’t know how many of each of those are employed for any sport, exactly, but yes, anyone working the concession stand is paid. Yes, there are maintenance people for the facilities and they are paid. The coaches are paid. The administrators are paid. The trainers are paid. The janitors are paid. And all contribute to the business that is college sports.

Why shouldn’t the athletes, the primary generator of sports revenue, be paid as well?

It’s a paradox, no? If all the people you mentioned are getting paid, then certainly the people, the players, the ones who actually “sell” tickets and popcorn, should get paid too. But, can girls soccer really sell enough tickets? Or, do they give those tickets away for free?

[Robert163]

I don’t think they should be paid. But, I think they should have a cap of 20 hours a week, including game time and travel, beyond that, they are students and need to study/go to class. IDK about a girls soccer team at a medium sized college, how much time that takes up, but here is the approximate schedule for a top level college football team:

5:30 AM- Wake Up
6 AM- 8AM Weight Training
8 AM - Breakfast
9 AM, 10AM, 11AM class
12 Noon Lunch
1 PM to 6 PM practice (includes reviewing films, meetings with coaches, studying play book, and, practice)
6:15 PM Dinner
7 PM 8 PM 9 PM - study hall
10 PM Bed

that’s 7 hours a day being an “athlete”
times 5 days a week is 35 hours
plus
travel time and game time

so basically it is a 40+ hour a week job
20 hours would be much more reasonable

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@Robert163

It’s a paradox, no? If all the people you mentioned are getting paid, then certainly the people, the players, the ones who actually “sell” tickets and popcorn, should get paid too. But, can girls soccer really sell enough tickets? Or, do they give those tickets away for free?

If they can’t sell enough tickets, then they shouldn’t be in the business of fielding a team. Why should professional sports be any different than any other business or industry?

ETA: Heading off the inevitable: how exactly is college athletics not professional sports?

[Robert163]

@Snowboarder_Bo

If they can’t sell enough tickets, then they shouldn’t be in the business of fielding a team. Why should professional sports be any different than any other business or industry?

ETA: Heading off the inevitable: how exactly is college athletics not professional sports?

Then you are essentially dooming half the college sports programs to non existence… I think it is better to provide an outlet for them to play, without pay, on a scholarship but limited to 20 hours a week. And to answer your question, they would be unpaid employees but I see no way around it.

Personally, I see no merit/value to at all to college sports. Playing basketball, volleyball or football has 0% to do with becoming an accountant or a civil engineer. I just know lots of people will want to keep going in their sport after high school is over. If that can be done at under 20 hours a week then I’m ok with it.

[Snowboarder_Bo]

Well, that’s a pertinent point, Robert: why in the world are college sports a thing at all? And why were they allowed to become what they are?

In our nominally capitalist society, does anyone really think they exist as they are for the benefit of the athletes?

For the record I have no problem with dooming even 100% of college sports, just as I have no problem with the country dooming cotton operations enabled by slavery.

An unethical business has no place in this world, IMO.

[madsircool]

Since students study hard to raise the academic reputation of universities, they should also get paid a proportion of grants, gifts and tuition that their studying generate. Lets also charge student athletes for training tables, medical care and private tutoring they receive. While we are at it, all volunteerism should be paid.

The foolishness of this suggestion is underscored by the fact that the majority of sport revenue comes from the involuntary payment of media subscribers like you and me, most who never watch. The collapse of the cable/satellite industries will sort this out.

[madsircool]

@Snowboarder_Bo

Well, that’s a pertinent point, Robert: why in the world are college sports a thing at all? And why were they allowed to become what they are?

In our nominally capitalist society, does anyone really think they exist as they are for the benefit of the athletes?

For the record I have no problem with dooming even 100% of college sports, just as I have no problem with the country dooming cotton operations enabled by slavery.

An unethical business has no place in this world, IMO.

Because they raise money for other students. Your analogy is insane.

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@madsircool

Since students study hard to raise the academic reputation of universities, they should also get paid a proportion of grants, gifts and tuition that their studying generate. Lets also charge student athletes for training tables, medical care and private tutoring they receive. While we are at it, all volunteerism should be paid.

The foolishness of this suggestion is underscored by the fact that the majority of sport revenue comes from the involuntary payment of media subscribers like you and me, most who never watch. The collapse of the cable/satellite industries will sort this out.

The lawsuit specifically calls out that scholarships do not constitute payment for non-academic work and should not have any bearing on determining whether or not athletes are due at least a minimum wage for the work they do in their athletic endeavours.

[madsircool]

@Snowboarder_Bo

The lawsuit specifically calls out that scholarships do not constitute payment for non-academic work and should not have any bearing on determining whether or not athletes are due at least a minimum wage for the work they do in their athletic endeavours.

Some doofus lawyer can call out whatever he or she wants. These students get to go to school free if they participate in a sport. No one forces them.

[madsircool]

BTW…SB seems to forget about the rsidual economic benefits of college athletics. At UCLA they are constructing new bb and fb training facilities that will likely run 100 mil. This benefits local contracters and construction workers and the gov gets to tax tix and media revenue. A win for all.

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@madsircool

BTW…SB seems to forget about the rsidual economic benefits of college athletics. At UCLA they are constructing new bb and fb training facilities that will likely run 100 mil. This benefits local contracters and construction workers and the gov gets to tax tix and media revenue. A win for all.

A win for all except the athletes, you mean.

ETA: You can call me Bo; it’s my name.

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@madsircool

Some doofus lawyer can call out whatever he or she wants. These students get to go to school free if they participate in a sport. No one forces them.

A person who is awarded an academic scholarship is still paid for work they do that directly benefits the learning institution, even if it’s a work-study job. Why shouldn’t athletes be paid for their non-academic work?

From the lawsuit:

5. Student athletes engage in non-academic performance for no academic credit in athletic competition representing NCAA Division I Member Schools. By comparison to student participants in work study part-time employment programs, student athletes perform longer, more rigorous hours – nearer full-time as reported in the NCAA Growth, Opportunities, Aspirations and Learning of Students (GOALS) Study (2010);2 are subject to stricter, more exacting supervision by full-time staff of NCAA Division I Member Schools, e.g., coaches and NCAA compliance officers; and confer as many, if not more, tangible and intangible benefits on NCAA Division I Member Schools.

[madsircool]

Snowboarder Bo…what if we called these athletes interns?

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@madsircool

Some doofus lawyer can call out whatever he or she wants. These students get to go to school free if they participate in a sport. No one forces them.

I was gonna miss the edit window, but this isn’t some lawyer’s pipe dream; it comes directly fromt he NCAA’s bylaws, as the lawsuit indicates:

9. Scholarships granted by NCAA Division I Member Schools to some student athletes, pursuant to NCAA bylaws, are not compensation for non-academic performance by student athletes because, among other things:
   (i) scholarships are grants-in-aid and generally not treated as taxable income – to a student athlete, or to any student granted any scholarship;
   (ii) scholarships are not offered, as a full or partial grant, to every student athlete engaged in non-academic performance; 4
   (iii) scholarships are granted to defray the academic cost of attendance and facilitate maintenance of academic eligibility,5 including, among other things, full-time enrollment,6 and progress-toward degree requirements; 7
   (iv) scholarship funds are not fungible, and cannot be granted for, or spent on, items other than the academic cost of attendance,8 as is generally the case for any scholarship granted to any student;
   (v) scholarships cannot be reduced or cancelled on the basis of athletics ability or performance, nor because of injury or physical condition;9
   (vi) scholarships can only be reduced or cancelled if the recipient becomes academically ineligible, engages in fraud or serious misconduct, or withdraws from the program to which the scholarship applies,10 as is generally the case for any scholarship granted to any student; and
   (vii) any scholarship granted to any student, who also participates in work study, does not relieve the college employer from the obligation to pay at least the federal minimum-wage rate for non-academic performance in work study.

[madsircool]

@Snowboarder_Bo

A win for all except the athletes, you mean.

ETA: You can call me Bo; it’s my name.

No one forces them to go to school and I’ll need a picture ID.

[PhillyGuy]

@DinoR

The “business” most of them are in loses money. The University of Houston almost certainly lost money on women’s soccer even before considering scholarships. Aside from men’s football and basketball college sports generally lose money. Outside of the major conferences the extra money from revenue sports is mostly chewed up trying to make ends meet for the non-revenue sports. If costs go up then other cuts will have to follow.

True:

American Council on Education

For almost every other university, sports is a money-losing proposition. Only big-time college football has a chance of generating enough net revenue to cover not only its own costs but those of “Olympic” sports like field hockey, gymnastics, and swimming. Not even men’s basketball at places like Duke University or the University of Kansas can generate enough revenue to make programs profitable.

They waste millions on sports while often, even generally, paying college instructors much less than high school teachers:

http://www.buffalonews.com/business/adjunct-professors-learn-hard-truth-about-faculty-jobs-20140414

@DinoR

If we apply those standards most student-athletes likely get fired and lose their scholarships.

I hope you are right. Then there will be more for scholarships overall.

State school leadership would probably tell me that without student/athlete entertainers, the legislature will reduce financial support. But cuts in state support for higher education are already happening at such a rapid rate that government support is only a small portion of most of these schools’ income. I know there is also risk of decline in alumni contributions if sports are ended. But surely there are other alumni who would step up if their Alma mater stopped exploiting student labor. At least, I hope so.