# Resolved: Conservatives get whatever they want **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 26, 2014, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-conservatives-get-whatever-they-want/687019 "2014-04-26T03:58:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-conservatives-get-whatever-they-want/687019/162 "2014-05-02T18:48:02Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You’re [wrong](http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-298.html). One failed experiment doth not sound conclusions make. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-conservatives-get-whatever-they-want/687019/163 "2014-05-02T18:51:29Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > One failed experiment doth not sound conclusions make. 12 years - a full school-generation of throwing huge money at Kansas City inner schools - and no results. That’s quite a sound conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-conservatives-get-whatever-they-want/687019/164 "2014-05-02T18:52:16Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > One can disagree if killing the fetus is murder, but one thinks it is, then government preventing such murder is a legitimate function of the government. So it’s okay for the government to force people to do something as long as Libertarians think it’s a good idea. You know the Democrats and the Republicans think the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-conservatives-get-whatever-they-want/687019/165 "2014-05-02T19:06:13Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So it’s okay for the government to force people to do something as long as Libertarians think it’s a good idea. As long as that something is murder, sure. > [@](#): > > You know the Democrats and the Republicans think the same thing. I think most political groups agree that the government has a role in outlawing murder. It’s just that they disagree on what constitutes “murder”. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-conservatives-get-whatever-they-want/687019/166 "2014-05-02T19:33:48Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I was in the military. Voluntarily. Me too, though sometimes I was forced (ordered) to do things I otherwise would not have done. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-conservatives-get-whatever-they-want/687019/167 "2014-05-02T19:36:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Me too, though sometimes I was forced (ordered) to do things I otherwise would not have done. You contracted, voluntarily, for the job. You abide by the terms of the contract. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-conservatives-get-whatever-they-want/687019/168 "2014-05-02T20:54:46Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > This is what puzzles me about conservatives- whenever there is a choice between siding with big corporations and siding with the people, whether it be about minimum wages, insurance coverages, unions, environmental regulations, etc., conservatives will side with the corporations 100% of the time. Why is that? Is the old canard “what’s good for GM is good for America” still their mindset? I could see this attitude if one was a business owner, but there are tons of conservatives plugging away in not terribly lucrative jobs that would rather cut off their arms than limit corporate power one iota. I didn’t see any conservatives siding with GM during the bailout. However, you’re on to something: Conservatives in the past have been primarily about limiting government power. That has lead them to knee-jerk support of business whenever new regulations are being proposed. But attitudes in conservative circles are changing, and a lot of conservatives I know are starting to realize that BIG business and big government are in a mutually beneficial arrangement - big businesses love regulation, because they have the ear of government and can twist those regulations to their benefit. To a huge conglomerate, their primary fear is not government but upstart businesses. If a regulatory state puts a disproportionate burden on small businesses and startups, the big conglomerates benefit. Just today there’s a story about SpaceX suing United Launch Alliance because they’ve been granted a monopoly on military space lift. This is a perfect example of how big business works with government to exclude smaller businesses. ULA was formed after the original companies found that competition between them was hurting their profits. So they colluded with the governent to allow them to join together (basically they got a waiver from anti-trust concerns) and create one company which would be granted a monopoly on military launches. So along comes SpaceX, which can do the launches for a fraction of the price, and without relying on Russian rocket motors that ULA uses. But SpaceX discovered an entire market completely closed to them. The bailouts and the close relationship of the Obama administration to many large corporations has woken the Republicans up to the fact that the fight isn’t exactly government vs business - it’s big government and big business against everyone else. The role of insurance companies in writing Obamacare wasn’t lost on them either. In the meantime, the Democrats seem to be going in the other direction with the White House cozying up to big businesses. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-conservatives-get-whatever-they-want/687019/169 "2014-05-02T21:09:19Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > What I think would really happen would be BK would say “Hey, McD’s just lowered theirs to $7.50! We can do the same!” My fear is that abolishing the MW would force a downward spiral of wages and in turn stifle demand as workers have less money to spend and start a recession. So why hasn’t this already happened? Why isn’t everyone making minimum wage? How come in my province almost _no one_ makes minimum wage? Even fast food and convenience store workers here typically make 2-3 dollars over minimum wage. According to the BLS, only 1.7 million workers in the U.S. make minimum wage. (2.2 million make below minimum wage, but I assume those are commissioned people or people who live on tips). Of that 1.7 million, half of them are under 25 years of age. When you look at workers over 16, even without a high school education the vast majority make more than minimum wage - only 11% of workers over 16 without a high school diploma make minimum wage. And only 2% of full time workers make minimum wage or less. So… Minimum wage is primarily a phenomenon of young people - which makes total sense, since they have little education and no job experience and are likely to be the kind of worker who doesn’t stick around long. Most of them are part-time workers. So where’s the big spiral to the bottom? Why do so few people make minimum wage? > [@](#): > > The thing about minimum wage workers is they spend every nickel they make, it gets plowed right back into the economy. So if we raise it, we increase consumer spending, stimulate business, get more tax revenue, and reduce welfare benefits as fewer workers would need them. Oh, look! A free lunch! Too bad it’s not true. The money that they are spending did not grow on trees. It was provided by businesses, which either must raise their prices, or cut down in investment and expansion, or otherwise stop spending somewhere else. And if it drives some companies into bankruptcy, just how much does that hurt the economy and tax revenue? If it keeps companies from hiring more people, how does that hurt the economy and tax revenues? The real thing about minimum wage workers is that they tend to be young people who are not the prime income earners in a household. They tend to be single people still living at home. Of course there are outliers - people really struggling to make ends meet as breadwinners making minimum wage. My mother was one of them until she worked her way up from the lowest jobs. But those people are so few that we’d be better off helping them with an earned income tax credit or other assistance rather than raising the minimum wage. There’s no reason a 15 year old kid needs to be ‘protected’ from earning a minimum wage. And if you try, the likely result will either be a very marginal change, or an unemployed kid. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-conservatives-get-whatever-they-want/687019/170 "2014-05-02T21:13:14Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > So you’re okay with the government not forcing women to complete their pregnancies? Yep. But abortion is really not a great example, as the question goes to is their one life at issue or two. I’m pro-choice, but I definitely can see the issue from the other side. > [@BobLibDem](#): > > Or that government-run schools shouldn’t compel students to say the pledge? They don’t. As it should be. > [@BobLibDem](#): > > And that government shouldn’t say gay people can’t get married? Bad example, firing people to do something is not the same as preventing them from doing it. We prevent 15 year olds from getting divers licenses; we don’t force 16 year olds to get them. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-conservatives-get-whatever-they-want/687019/171 "2014-05-02T21:14:16Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > So if you can’t afford to send your kids to a non-government run school, they don’t get educated? Why do you say that? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-conservatives-get-whatever-they-want/687019/172 "2014-05-02T21:15:57Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Understood. I disagree with your principles, but I see where you’re coming from. > > Another chasm of attitude between conservatives and others. In conservative theology, anything run by the government could and would be better run by others. I, for one, don’t want to limit the educational opportunities available to our youth based on whether someone thinks he can make a buck by starting a school in the area. We all know who gets left behind in cases like this- the inner city kid. But there the one’s being put most at risk from the very government-run schools you favor. Most of the schools really suck. And that’s the very reason Charters are being embraced as much as they are. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-conservatives-get-whatever-they-want/687019/173 "2014-05-02T21:18:34Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > One failed experiment doth not sound conclusions make. And the scale aft which it was done, yes it does. I can only imagine how much you would be championing this massive experiment if all the spending work. Please. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-conservatives-get-whatever-they-want/687019/174 "2014-05-02T21:24:31Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Vouchers. And what do vouchers accomplish? You don’t think they encourage schools to say to themselves “Hey since the Feds are giving vouchers of say $2000 a year to parents let’s slowly raise our tuition so we can get more money!” Before anyone starts thinking I’m being absurd does anyone think that government backed student loans aren’t at least part of the reason for such heavy tuition inflation at colleges? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-conservatives-get-whatever-they-want/687019/175 "2014-05-02T21:40:58Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > And what do vouchers accomplish? > > You don’t think they encourage schools to say to themselves “Hey since the Feds are giving vouchers of say $2000 a year to parents let’s slowly raise our tuition so we can get more money!” > > Before anyone starts thinking I’m being absurd does anyone think that government backed student loans aren’t at least part of the reason for such heavy tuition inflation at colleges? Colleges are not elementary schools. And there are quite a few very affordable community colleges around for those who want college education. Granted, they are not Harvard, but neither are most K-12 schools Sidwell Friends. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-conservatives-get-whatever-they-want/687019/176 "2014-05-02T21:43:09Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Before anyone starts thinking I’m being absurd does anyone think that government backed student loans aren’t at least part of the reason for such heavy tuition inflation at colleges? You’re right about that. It was a huge factor. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-conservatives-get-whatever-they-want/687019/177 "2014-05-02T21:46:29Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Do you honestly think private schools are going to want to move in and do a better job for less money? For that matter, what about the rural areas where you might have a township with 100 kids in it. There might not be enough of a market there for the private sector to fill. The government-run education system is an excellent example of how big government fails. It’s hard to imagine a private school system being worse. Even here in Canada where our schools are generally better than American schools (and MUCH better than the U.S. inner-city schools), I’m appalled by what I see in that system. Lazy teachers, incompetent administrators, poor teaching materials, ancient methods… But most importantly, a union-based system where teachers are protected from being fired for bad performance and have no incentive to be exceptional. It’s a closed-shop that excludes a lot of otherwise qualified people from teaching because they lack the correct, near-meaningless credentials. And at least in our province, the teacher’s unions have managed to negotiate extraordinarily good salaries - a teacher with 20 years of experience earns a median of $84,000, for working about 2/3 as many hours per year as anyone else. And they have an incredibly good retirement program. It costs us a fortune in taxes. This is what happens when you don’t have a market providing incentives and forcing organizational efficiency. Without that, you get a bureaucracy that grows and becomes its own special interest. And when it’s tied to taxpayer money, the incentives become perverse. Just this year I’ve had to deal with a teacher attempting to teach crystal healing and ‘auras’ as real things to my kid in philosophy class, and disinterested teachers who don’t even bother to check homework. Exam questions that were so poorly written you couldn’t tell what the question was. Last year a math teacher single-handedly destroyed my kid’s confidence in and love of Math - a subject in which he always got straight A’s. When we complained about the teacher to the principal, the principal and vice-principal exchanged knowing looks and sighed and said, “Yes, there’s not much we can do. Have you considered summer school?” Mentioning the problem to a counselor resulted in the counseler saying, “Let me guess… Mrs. xxxxxx, right? We know. It’s a problem. Nothing we can do.” She’s been in the system berating kids and un-teaching mathematics for decades, and nothing can be done about her. Her ‘rate my teacher’ page is filled with children complaining bitterly about her. But her job is safe. The kid’s educations? Not so much. A few years ago we discovered that the school was teaching kids that beavers were amphibians, and my attempts to get anyone in the school to care and correct the material were met with zero success (it was actually a Doper here who didn’t believe me and called the school board to check my story who succeeded in getting a promise to correct the material, but I don’t know if that ever happened). In the meantime, my kid is subject to crazy liberal indoctrination almost daily. Science class is all-environment, all the time. They’ve been forced to watch nonsense propaganda from ex-Greenpeace activists as classroom material. And it was REAL nonsense, not just a left-wing point of view. As bad as creationism. But mostly, it’s about an indifferent bureaucracy that warehouses kids and runs them through on an assembly line with rigid rules. The public high schools around here have graduation rates that range from 65% to maybe 80% at best. And the diplomas are very watered down and getting more so each year. So I wouldn’t hold up public education as a sterling example of government excellence. In an alternative universe, I can imagine a government that treated shoes like public education. After all, everyone needs shoes. And what if the poor can’t afford them? Think of the disadvantage they’d be under. In that universe, government controlled the shoe market from the dawn of the industrial economy. The shoes were lousy, uncomfortable, and cost society a fortune. There’s a massive shoe bureaucracy. But if you tried to shut it down, the arguments would be the same: How could the private market possibly deliver shoes to everyone? What about the poor? A government shoe costs $500! How would poor people ever afford it? No, the government must continue to provide shoes - it’s something the market just can’t handle. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-conservatives-get-whatever-they-want/687019/178 "2014-05-02T21:54:39Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > And what do vouchers accomplish? > > You don’t think they encourage schools to say to themselves “Hey since the Feds are giving vouchers of say $2000 a year to parents let’s slowly raise our tuition so we can get more money!” > > Before anyone starts thinking I’m being absurd does anyone think that government backed student loans aren’t at least part of the reason for such heavy tuition inflation at colleges? Sure, but part of the reason is that supply in higher education is inelastic - it’s very hard for new credentialed colleges to open. And the supply of Ivy League schools is completely inelastic. So increasing demand through subsidies cannot help but to drive up tuition. The higher education market is also distorted by land-grant colleges and other interventions in the market. Even so, we’re starting to see changes. Online education and MOOCS are growing very rapidly in response to the out-of-control tuition hikes we’re seeing in higher education. So the market is trying to work there, even with two strikes against it. The last problem is credentialism, with established colleges having a oligopoly power due to their control of credentials. If we can find a way to substitute for that, the market will widen and tuition will come down as alternatives to the traditional colleges flourish. In K-12 education these structural problems don’t exist, or not nearly to the same degree. It’s much easier to open a school. We have commercial adult education high schools in shopping malls here. The market in private education would be much more competitive. The credentialism is standardized and even home schoolers can get proper diplomas. ---
**Author:** ![Drum\_God](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drum_god/32/44_2.png) [@Drum\_God](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drum_God)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2014, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-conservatives-get-whatever-they-want/687019/179 "2014-05-05T23:03:26Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > But there the one’s being put most at risk from the very government-run schools you favor. Most of the schools really suck. Please provide a cite for this statement. An appropriate cite must include “most”. Some public schools have problems. However, you will also find that the communities in which they are located have problems. However, I challenge you to support the assertion that “most schools really suck.” ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-conservatives-get-whatever-they-want/687019/180 "2014-05-06T00:25:54Z")
> [@Drum\_God](#): > > Please provide a cite for this statement. An appropriate cite must include “most”. Some public schools have problems. However, you will also find that the communities in which they are located have problems. However, I challenge you to support the assertion that “most schools really suck.” I was referring to inner-city schools, which I referenced from **BobLibDem’s** post which the phrase you cite was in response to, not schools generally. I do not think that most schools, generally, really suck. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-conservatives-get-whatever-they-want/687019.md?page=8)