Resolved: Contracts require at least two parties

The central problem with jtgain’s analogy is the way it ignores or minimizes the very serious problems that marriage fixes for gay people, without showing that any similar problems exist for his “cleanlosexuals.”

Imagine Bob and Ted are a couple, and so is Carol and her Maytag Maxima front load washer with steam and powerwash system. Neither couple is legally allowed to wed.

Bob falls into a coma. Because Bob’s parents are troglodyte homophobes, they forbid Ted to visit Bob at the hospital. The house they’ve shared for twenty years is in Bob’s name. Ted’s been the homemaker, living off of Bob’s large salary. When Bob dies, his parents take the house and all the assets, leaving Ted destitute, homeless, and with no job relevant experience in the last two decades. He can’t even get survivors benefits from Bob’s stint in the Maribes. In the final insult, Bob’s parents won’t even tell Ted where Bob is buried, so he can pay his respect to the grave. I think we can all agree that this is a terrible and regrettable outcome right? And one that could have been prevented if SSM had been available to them?

Now let’s look at Carol and her Maytag. If Carol falls into a coma, and the Maytag is prevented from visiting her, the Maytag doesn’t care. The house and all the assets are in Carol’s name, and they’re all claimed by the parents when she dies. The Maytag still doesn’t care. The parents throw the Mautag out of the home it’s lived in for twenty years (Maytag makes a good washer) and is left on the street. The Maytag still doesn’t care, although the parents might get a ticket for littering.

Or, tun it around, and it’s the Maytag that breaks down. Carol might have some issues with being allowed to visit the washer in the shop, although I suspect something could be worked out. It’s not like Maytag’s parent company is going to block her. If the Maytag proves beyond repair, that’s sad for Carol, but she’s not out anything other than an appliance and her emotional investment. The washer does not own any property, nor does it have a paying job, nor does it collect government benefits. So there’s no danger of loss of home or financial support. Carol is free to dispose of her loved ones remains however she sees fit, in accordance with local anti-dumping laws.

The only point of comparison where this analogy works is compassion. Gay people are, by and large, insulted at not being allowed to marry, and perhaps cleanlosexuals are similarly insulted. But that compassion is not, and has never been, sufficient reason in and of itself to create gay marriage - it’s the thousands and thousands of stories of unendurable heartbreak and staggering unfairness that makes SSM a necessity, and appliance marriage and insulting farce of a failed argument.

Alright. I deleted it. But I left post #32 in place, to teach you a lesson about thinking before you type.

Not just that, but you could enter into a contract with anyone or everyone without their ever being aware of it.

“Hey, world, my contract with you says you owe me one MEELION dollars!”

This. We change the legal rules surrounding marriage all the time. I’ve got a 400+ page book on my bookshelf outlining all the legal changes to marriage in the state of CA since statehood, and that’s just 164 years for one state. I don’t remember anyone claiming that when CA gave equal property rights to women in a marriage that this meant that people could marry their washing machines (well, I was too young for that, so maybe it happened).

I think everyone is right, but the OP is “more right.” Of course we can define anything however we collectively like. It is then by (new) definition, correct.

The traditional definition of marriage, for a given culture, has many attributes, one of them being that it’s between a man and a woman. To a growing percentage of people (I include myself in this tribe), that heterosexual requirement is arbitrary though. It’s an attribute that does not fundamentally define the institution in the same way that “mutual, consensual commitment” does, for example. For many, you might just as well define marriage as between “people with the same hair color.” Even if that union possessed all the other elements of a traditional marriage, that detail seems arbitrary, and the nature of marriage wouldn’t change in any material way if we removed that restriction.

The analogy for contracts, OTOH, is twisted beyond recognition. It becomes something, but it’s not recognizable as a contract. That can still occur, I suppose.

Also, jsgoddess’s posts are the definitely the funniest in this thread, just to settle that. :smiley:

No, not really. As I mentioned above, we already permit inanimate objects to be the defendants in forfeiture lawsuits. When the sheriff seizes your car for drug running, the criminal case against you is another matter; the civil case is something like “Okeechee County vs. One 2012 Chevy Traverse.” We didn’t redefine “lawsuit,” from the ground up to make these cases work.

Then explain. What traits would a contract with an inanimate object have, such that recognizing such a contract more similar to a normal two-party contract than it is to granting a medal?

“I never really believed those stories until one day it happened to me. I had moved into a new house and hadn’t purchased any appliances yet. My neighbor told me I could use his washer and dryer, so I headed over there with a basket of dirty laundry. I walked down the stairs into the laundry room and couldn’t believe my eyes. The amazing lines of the…”

Also, in a little bit of reading about these cases, I confess I’m having a very hard time understanding their justification. It looks like they originally came about as a way of dealing with property where the owner was unknown, as a way to avoid saying “US vs. John Doe in the manner of the 2008 Chevy Traverse”; in those cases it got shortened to “US vs. CHevy Traverse,” simple shorthand. The movement to using such lawsuits even when the owner was known, relegating the owner to a third party claimant, seems outrageous and baffling, except as a way to keep the action technically legal. While it shows that of course you can do anything you want to words, I don’t think we’re discussing what’s possible, but rather what’s wise and what makes sense linguistically.

This new form of lawsuit, in which the de facto defendant doesn’t get to act as a defendant, appears wholly unlike a normal lawsuit, and I think that difference is the source of much of the outrage over civil forfeitures. Rather than being an example of how this sort of change is okay, it’s more of a cautionary tale, in which a radical reinvention of a word such that it doesn’t match the basic idea of a word leads to bad things.

Again, this is different from redefining one aspect of the word: changing marriage to allow SSM leaves the institution basically intact in all the normal ways. Changing “lawsuit” so that the de facto defendant doesn’t get to be the actual defendant is a far more serious change.

You’re right, it’s all pretty much arbitrary. People are arguing like there is some objective standard, but there isn’t.

I personally am for SSM (I think the govt should stay out of our lives as much as possible). But from the perspective of the cleanlosexual’s (or berlinwallers), their issue is probably equally as important as SSM is to an SSM’er. It doesn’t necessarily mean as a society we expend our time and energy to support every niche need which leads to the questions: which things should we spend our collective time and energy on and why?

What rights will the cleanosexual gain with recognition of their marriage?

And you thus move the discussion into the realm of what’s wise policy.

Which is my point. I agree granting “contract rights” to inanimate objects is unwise in the extreme.

Yes, it’s a more serious change. But it’s a matter of degree. Which is why I object to your characterization of the issue as wholly different. It’s not.

Extended warranty? :slight_smile:
I think there are two types of issues:
1 - Emotional
2 - Rights/benefits

Cleanlo’s get #1 but I can’t think of any in #2 category.

jtgain’s argument is equivalent to this:

If we allow SSM, we could also allow people to kill each other legally.

It’s true. If we can change laws, we can change laws. However, the merits for SSM and legalized murder are very different.

So, let’s look at SSM versus marrying the toaster. We know full well what SSM means. There is a substantial segment of the population that says they would dramatically benefit from it, and who feel victimized because they can’t, because of laws pertaining to the legal partner (property laws, estate laws, hospital visitation rules, who has the right to handle the remains of the deceased, etc.)

I’m trying to think of ANY of these very significant issues that applies to a toaster, and I’m just not able to, unless perhaps I want someone to be able to bring my toaster to my hospital room. But then, I can probably do that without an act of Congress. (Pun intended.)

So, there definitely is an argument that if we change a thing one way, we could change it another. But are there any good arguments for the latter? Is there a significant portion of the population that suffers from the inability to marry inanimate objects?

It’s a terribly weak argument. No better than the one that says that if we allow SSM, we could also allow legalized killing, because after all, we can change laws! We can change legal definitions! Oh boy!

The reason why it’s unwise is the same reason it’s unwise in the extreme to sue cars: it’s nonsensical.

The thing is, suing cars and marrying washing machines is nonsensical. These actions have virtually nothing to do with the actions of suing and marrying people; they’re so different that using the same word is pointless.

Marrying a man and marrying a woman are the same essential action. The analogy fails on that account. It’s not a difference just of degree, it’s a difference of kind.

Look at it this way: under old law, was it possible to marry a man? Was it possible to marry a woman? Of course it was: it just depended on who you were.

Under old law, was it possible to marry a washing machine? Of course not: nobody could do that.

We know what it means for someone to marry a man. We know what it means for someone to marry a woman. There’s no legal trickiness involved. Changing the law requires nothing more than removing a restriction on who can enter into the contract.

We don’t know what it means to marry a washing machine. Nobody can do that under the old law.

Comparing the two is nonsense. It’s not just degree.

Frankly, I think you’re wrong that it’d be easy to rewrite all of contract law to handle single-party contracts, in all 50 states. But let’s let that be a semantic objection, because we could just as easy change marriage from a contract to something else.

But what the heck would that something else be, and why would anyone bother, and why would this be a good argument against SSM?

It’s not a good argument against SSM. It’s merely the statement that we can change laws and definitions. Well, you’re right! We can! Yay! I’m not worried about washing machines, though. I’m not even worried about polygamy, though the SSM argument applies better to that than to washing machines. I’m not worried because (1) it doesn’t have enough support, but more importantly (2) it’s a much bigger change to existing law, with lots more case law to work out, precedents to set, details to muck things up entirely.

And if we overcome those two objections, then well, OK, fine.

Bingo! This argument can be used against any proposed change, therefore, we should never change anything.

And again, bingo.

Good question. My short answer is that we should for the most part let people alone and not interfere with what they want to do, so long as those actions don’t materially impact others’ right to be left alone. Government’s role should be to safeguard that model. (And I’d add to that, their role is to provide a reasonable social safety net and build infrastructure that is best built by the government.)

So, to bring it back to SSM: I think that is firmly within the realm of “none of my business.” Who am I to say someone else can’t marry who they’d like when there is virtually no impact on any one else? If someone else wants to rally around the cause of marrying appliances, I suppose I could be supportive of that too, for similar reasons. :smiley:

Beautifully put. The problem is really just that analogies suck at anything other than illustration.

You can illustrate points with an analogy, but decisions really need to be based on facts directly pertinent to the matter at hand.

How is this not the biggest waste of time ever?

No, seriously. It’s a phenomenally silly slippery slope argument with no basis in reality. Why are we talking about this? I think we already agreed in the other thread that it was the kind of argument that nobody *ought *to take seriously. Stop giving it the benefit of the doubt.