# Resolved: Donald Trump did not dodge the draft **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 3, 2016, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-donald-trump-did-not-dodge-the-draft/761648 "2016-08-03T16:54:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Drum\_God](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drum_god/32/44_2.png) [@Drum\_God](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drum_God)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-donald-trump-did-not-dodge-the-draft/761648/41 "2016-08-04T01:43:59Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > Did he have an actual Conscientious Objector draft status? Did he perform alternative service (which was usually something like working in a hospital)? Then he wasn’t a draft dodger. He was lucky he was born in 1941 – those CO deferments were a LOT harder to get later in the 1960s. As far as I know, he had actual CO draft status, but I know of no alternate service that he performed. I’m almost positive that there wasn’t – he went straight from undergrad to grad school, including moving from Illinois to Austin. They moved to Austin in 1963 (I think) and I (their oldest child) was born in 1967. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-donald-trump-did-not-dodge-the-draft/761648/42 "2016-08-04T02:28:34Z")
Alternate service isn’t always a requirement. There were several programs for alternate service, some COs were allowed to take non-combat roles in the military, others were simply not required to serve. Establishing CO status is the difficult part. Religious exemptions are common, but not always allowed. I registered for the draft as a CO. No one cared, the draft was active but no one was called up anymore. I was prepared to serve in a non-combat role. BTW: Three COs who served in non-combat roles were awarded the Medal of Honor. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-donald-trump-did-not-dodge-the-draft/761648/43 "2016-08-04T02:29:30Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > So instead they gave the grade that sent some other, probably poorer kid, who never got to go to college at all, to Vietnam in his place. So what? It’s not the symptom of some insidious rich-guy favoritism, it’s more that the professors didn’t want to send someone they knew to Vietnam if they could help it. Look at it this way; would you have intentionally sent someone to Iraq or Afghanistan if the chances were good that if you didn’t, someone poorer would go in their place? Saying that you’d say yes is every bit as classist as what you suggest was going on, just in the opposite direction. The fact of the matter was that Vietnam sucked and not a whole lot of young men wanted anything to do with it. The government policies on deferments and the like didn’t help matters much either, but they’ve changed them now. I can’t really fault someone in the professor’s spot, nor can I fault someone in say… GWB’s spot- high lottery number, yet joined the Texas ANG anyway. He could probably have just stayed home and not joined the military at all, and people probably would have castigated him for not volunteering. In my mind, the only people who should be called “draft dodgers” are people whose lottery numbers came up, and who then engaged in a campaign of doing actions that were ethically and legally questionable to avoid their military obligation. Availing oneself of deferments that you qualify for doesn’t really count, but fleeing to Canada, or getting bogus medical deferments for conditions you don’t have, or claiming to be gay when you’re not all do count. Personally, I wondered why they didn’t do something like join a service other than the Army or Marines; most Navy and Air Force personnel stayed stateside, and even the ones that didn’t were typically on reasonably well guarded and appointed air bases and ships, not humping it in the boonies up to their ankles in stagnant water. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-donald-trump-did-not-dodge-the-draft/761648/44 "2016-08-04T02:37:05Z")
You have to look at the context. Mr Khan was speaking in comparison to his own son, who volunteered for duty, and never came back, despite having a career in law waiting for him. Under those circumstances and considering Donald’s attacks on his family I’m completely fine with Mr Khan calling Donald a draft dodger. He could have said instead “shirked his duty”, which would have been more accurate but I’m not going to be pedantic about a gold star father giving an emotional response to Donald’s attacks. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-donald-trump-did-not-dodge-the-draft/761648/45 "2016-08-04T06:14:07Z")
If we’re talking about the Vietnam era draft, here are my thoughts. There was draft dodging, draft avoidance, and draft resistance. 3 different things. 1. Draft resistance is the easiest thing for me to define: “No, I will NOT take the oath!” usually followed by a 2 year minimum stint in a Federal Penitentiary unless you could afford a good lawyer. 2. Draft dodging is next easiest to define: Heading up to Canada. Faking an illness for your physical. Or falsely claiming homosexuality. 3. Draft avoidance… this is the tricky one because there were many flavors. Dan Quayle and George W Bush avoided the draft by joining the National Guard. Joining the reserves was a way to avoid being drafted and sent to Vietnam. Joining the Peace Corps. Going to college and maintaining a passing GPA (until the lottery came in). Being married with children made one less draftable. Having a private physician find a legitimate medical condition that would have been unnoticed in a typical assembly line draft board physical (the medical condition that got Rush Limbaugh his 4-F status was the same one his father managed to get a waiver for so he could serve in WWII). Getting Conscientious Objector status. Becoming a Quaker or some other religious deferment. A deferment status came with some professions also. And there were other ways also. Then some guys got out of being drafted by enlisting in the Army. They’d get a choice of school to attend. They’d have to stay in a year longer, but figured that working in a motor pool was better than humping a rifle in the jungle. And there was the Navy, Air Force, and Coast Guard. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-donald-trump-did-not-dodge-the-draft/761648/46 "2016-08-04T12:37:24Z")
I don’t see the point of distinguishing “dodging” from “avoidance.” ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-donald-trump-did-not-dodge-the-draft/761648/47 "2016-08-04T13:37:31Z")
> [@Iggy](#): > > Bill Clinton’s DOB August 19, 1946 gave him a draft number of 311. Lucky, sure. Dodging, no. It was what Bill Clinton did before he knew what his lottery number was that make the label of “draft dodger” more appropriate for him than for Trump. Although I agree it is a non-issue for Trump - nobody who doesn’t already hate Trump cares about this. On a related note, Hillary Clinton claimed she tried to join the Marines in 1975, shortly before marrying Bill. Unfortunately this appears to be another typical Clintonism - unverified, self-serving, with no supporting evidence and a [certain amount of reason to conclude that it is other than factual](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/11/12/hillary-clintons-claim-that-she-tried-to-join-the-marines/). Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-donald-trump-did-not-dodge-the-draft/761648/48 "2016-08-04T14:16:07Z")
This thread, to me, is an example of asymmetric thinking. I think Donald can probably be called a draft dodger. But more importantly–I think we shouldn’t give any nuanced view to issues relating to Trump. He throws out insults constantly and without thought, and while I think this is a minor issue, I see no reason not to view him negatively whenever possible–even on the thinnest pretext, and without giving Donald the benefit of either doubt or deep investigation of the issue. Trump’s behavior over 40 years in the public eye and in business have built up a “reasonable predisposition” assuming that in any given incident Trump behaved poorly and disreputably, until proving otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-donald-trump-did-not-dodge-the-draft/761648/49 "2016-08-04T14:22:20Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > This thread, to me, is an example of asymmetric thinking. I think Donald can probably be called a draft dodger. But more importantly–I think we shouldn’t give any nuanced view to issues relating to Trump. He throws out insults constantly and without thought, and while I think this is a minor issue, I see no reason not to view him negatively whenever possible–even on the thinnest pretext, and without giving Donald the benefit of either doubt or deep investigation of the issue. I see a reason. Our discussion should be about fighting ignorance. Your approach does not do that: it instead creates a rule that squelches investigation of the actual truth. Trump has generously presented the country with dozens of actual horrible flaws, flaws which survive rigorous and complete investigation. We are certainly capable of acknowledging a positive – or neutral – aspect of his biography while remaining deeply horrified at the remaining flaws. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-donald-trump-did-not-dodge-the-draft/761648/50 "2016-08-04T14:34:31Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > I don’t see the point of distinguishing “dodging” from “avoidance.” The actions **Ranger Jeff** described as resistance were acts of civil disobedience, protest actions that were intended to publicly flaunt the (unjust) law and suffer the consequences. Dodging techniques were also clearly illegal and could get you thrown in prison if you were caught. That’s why Jimmy Carter specifically pardoned draft evaders in 1977. But no one stood on the courthouse steps saying, “I got a doctor to write a false diagnosis of asthma so I won’t pass the physical!” Draft avoidance was roughly the same as using legitimate tax deductions to reduce your tax bill. If I own a home and take a mortgage interest deduction and you rent and can’t take the deduction, it sucks to be you, but it’s all proper and above-board. But the draftees, draft avoiders, and enlisted troops ALL despised the rich and politically connected kids who got into National Guard or Reserve units to escape being sent overseas. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-donald-trump-did-not-dodge-the-draft/761648/51 "2016-08-04T14:34:34Z")
I believe in fighting ignorance for the common good, I don’t believe in doing so to help Donald Trump. He has $3-4bn and the resources of the RNC, $70m cash in hand with his campaign, to fight these battles. Someone who has slurred so many, I see no reason to give “nuanced” views out for his various innumerable negative personal tales. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-donald-trump-did-not-dodge-the-draft/761648/52 "2016-08-04T14:37:36Z")
When there are so many good (metaphorical) explosive devices to ignite under the Trump campaign, I see no need to deploy this wet firecracker. Besides, the guy seems more interested in appeasing Russia and avoiding foreign conflict than in starting wars, so whacking him for alleged hypocrisy over his non-military service doesn’t seem like it would be very fruitful. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-donald-trump-did-not-dodge-the-draft/761648/53 "2016-08-04T15:13:03Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > But the draftees, draft avoiders, and enlisted troops ALL despised the rich and politically connected kids who got into National Guard or Reserve units to escape being sent overseas. That was given as an example _of_ avoidance. All forms of which were to escape being sent overseas–which in all cases equals someone else with less pull or wiles being forced to go instead–but only some of which represented an actual inability to serve, oneself. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-donald-trump-did-not-dodge-the-draft/761648/54 "2016-08-04T16:12:33Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > When there are so many good (metaphorical) explosive devices to ignite under the Trump campaign, I see no need to deploy this wet firecracker… And this is why I brought up this topic. Part of Trump’s monologue is how the media and Democrats aren’t being honest about the state of America and about Trump himself. Those politically opposed to Trump taking pot shots that aren’t really backed up play into his (and his supporters’) thinking. There are PLENTY enough criticisms of Trump that can be easily documented so as to never need to overplay your hand when arguing against him. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-donald-trump-did-not-dodge-the-draft/761648/55 "2016-08-04T16:50:59Z")
> [@Drum\_God](#): > > Question tangentially related to this issue. My dad was born on October 25, 1941. (He has since died). During the 1960s, he had conscientious objector status. He was not drafted into the service, nor did he enlist on his own. (His father, my grandfather, was an NCO in the army. He had died by the time my dad would have been old enough for service.) > > So, would my dad be considered a draft dodger? He did not flee the country nor did he hide in the states. To the best of my knowledge, no political or financial strings were pulled to assist him. (My family did not and does not now have a lot of money.) I know some of you are veterans here. How do you consider a person who did not serve because of conscientious objector? (My dad and I never really talked about this much. The one time I recall it coming up was when Desert Storm was gearing up. He mentioned digging up his info for me, but I didn’t think the draft was a real possibility. I also had a problem with the idea of my peers going into harm’s way and my staying behind.) > > Just to be fair, my dad is long gone and I have issues with him that have nothing to do with military service. While I don’t want him trashed, it would not hurt my feelings if one of said he was a draft dodger. Far worse (and better) truthful things could be said about him. Slight hijack about conscientious objectors. > [@](#): > > [Desmond Thomas Doss](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond_Doss) (February 7, 1919 – March 23, 2006) was the first conscientious objector to receive the Medal of Honor and one of only three so honored (the others are Thomas W. Bennett and Joseph G. LaPointe, Jr.). He was a Corporal (Private First Class at the time of his Medal of Honor heroics) in the U.S. Army assigned to the Medical Detachment, 307th Infantry, 77th Infantry Division. > … > Enlisting voluntarily in April 1942,[3] Desmond Doss refused to kill or carry a weapon into combat because of his personal beliefs as a Seventh-day Adventist. He consequently became a medic, and while serving in the Pacific theatre of World War II he helped his country by saving the lives of his comrades, at the same time adhering to his religious convictions. Doss was wounded three times during the war, and shortly before leaving the Army he was diagnosed with tuberculosis, which cost him a lung.[4][5] Discharged from the Army in 1946,[6] he spent five years undergoing medical treatment for his injuries and illness.[5] I believe there’s a movie about him coming out soon. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-donald-trump-did-not-dodge-the-draft/761648/56 "2016-08-04T17:31:53Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > That was given as an example _of_ avoidance. All forms of which were to escape being sent overseas–which in all cases equals someone else with less pull or wiles being forced to go instead–but only some of which represented an actual inability to serve, oneself. But there was a pecking order even among avoiders. Different classifications required varying levels of “commitment”, and got different levels of respect. At the top of the list were the Conscientious Objectors, who were subject to having to serve non-combat or alternative service. Then there were the various hardship deferments, the occupational deferments, and at the bottom were the men with family connections who got into draft-exempt positions with no effort on their part. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-donald-trump-did-not-dodge-the-draft/761648/57 "2016-08-04T18:35:15Z")
> [@Iggy](#): > > In common parlance, to dodge the draft was to fail to appear for induction or seek exemption once your number had come up. However Trump’s number never came up. Here is where I would disagree with you, that may have been the common parlance at the time, but a generation (or two) later, after three presidential campaigns (Clinton, Bush, and now Trump) where the issue has come up it no longer it is. You could claim that it is a dumbing down (and a privileged generation forgetting what the draft was all about), but all three candidates have been described as “draft dodgers”. That is the way the English language works, there is no commitee that decides what the definition of a word is. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-donald-trump-did-not-dodge-the-draft/761648/58 "2016-08-04T18:54:20Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > If we’re talking about the Vietnam era draft, here are my thoughts. There was draft dodging, draft avoidance, and draft resistance. 3 different things. > > 1. Draft resistance is the easiest thing for me to define: “No, I will NOT take the oath!” usually followed by a 2 year minimum stint in a Federal Penitentiary unless you could afford a good lawyer. > > 2. Draft dodging is next easiest to define: Heading up to Canada. Faking an illness for your physical. Or falsely claiming homosexuality. > > 3. Draft avoidance… this is the tricky one because there were many flavors. Dan Quayle and George W Bush avoided the draft by joining the National Guard. Joining the reserves was a way to avoid being drafted and sent to Vietnam. Joining the Peace Corps. Going to college and maintaining a passing GPA (until the lottery came in). Being married with children made one less draftable. Having a private physician find a legitimate medical condition that would have been unnoticed in a typical assembly line draft board physical (the medical condition that got Rush Limbaugh his 4-F status was the same one his father managed to get a waiver for so he could serve in WWII). Getting Conscientious Objector status. Becoming a Quaker or some other religious deferment. A deferment status came with some professions also. And there were other ways also. > > Then some guys got out of being drafted by enlisting in the Army. They’d get a choice of school to attend. They’d have to stay in a year longer, but figured that working in a motor pool was better than humping a rifle in the jungle. And there was the Navy, Air Force, and Coast Guard. I’d call draft dodging taking active steps to avoid the draft, while draft avoidance was going through the usual system. Going to school was draft avoidance - we all would have gone anyway. Being a CO is also, since COs put themselves through the existing process. I’d put going to a doctor know to find reasons to get someone declared 4F is dodging. Going to the doctor and discovering you have something wrong with you that makes you 4F is avoidance. We don’t know that Trump went to a doctor with a record of this, but I wouldn’t be surprised. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-donald-trump-did-not-dodge-the-draft/761648/59 "2016-08-04T20:44:03Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > When there are so many good (metaphorical) explosive devices to ignite under the Trump campaign, I see no need to deploy this wet firecracker. > > Besides, the guy seems more interested in appeasing Russia and avoiding foreign conflict than in starting wars, so whacking him for alleged hypocrisy over his non-military service doesn’t seem like it would be very fruitful. I actually think the strategy for defeating Trump is to hammer ever nail visible. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-donald-trump-did-not-dodge-the-draft/761648/60 "2016-08-04T20:50:34Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I believe in fighting ignorance for the common good, I don’t believe in doing so to help Donald Trump. He has $3-4bn and the resources of the RNC, $70m cash in hand with his campaign, to fight these battles. Someone who has slurred so many, I see no reason to give “nuanced” views out for his various innumerable negative personal tales. I disagree. The service of fighting ignorance may assist a sinner and besmirch a saint; that’s not a reason to eschew the fight. Ultimately, the long run benefits from an informed view of the world in all its particulars, even if in once case Trump’s interests are advanced. Put another way: I refuse to let Donald J. Trump deter my interest in fighting ignorance. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-donald-trump-did-not-dodge-the-draft/761648.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-donald-trump-did-not-dodge-the-draft/761648.md?page=4)