You are just as much a draft dodger as Bill Clinton, agree?
The same weak sauce that is being thrown at Trump over this issue is the same exact weak sauce that was thrown from the Republicans at Bill Clinton.
And, besides, what** TriPolar** said!!
He may not have dodged the draft by a strict interpretation of the phrase, maybe. But if we can smear the record of John Kerry, then Mr. “I like guys who weren’t captured” will receive roughly zero sympathy from me.
Iggy, not sure if you lived through the Vietnam era (I did, and was even in the USMA at the time, and graduated at a time when we were winding down in Vietnam so never went–I basically got lucky by being born late enough to avoid it), but no one back then considered you “not a draft dodger” based on your lottery number vs your behavior. If you used special privilege to avoid the draft, even if your lottery number was high, most people would call you a draft dodger. So it’s not really relevant that x figure probably wouldn’t have been drafted anyway due to a high number.
Al Gore and John Kerry were from wealthy families, Gore’s dad was a U.S. Senator, neither had to go to Vietnam. They absolutely could’ve gotten postings in other branches of the services, or found other deferments. Almost no one from the Ivy League classes those two graduated from served in Vietnam, and it isn’t coincidental.
Also, if the lottery number so obviously meant you wouldn’t get drafted, why exactly did these guys find special deferments, or join the national guard? The reality is they were using privilege to make sure they wouldn’t be drafted. Period.
Last I saw, Trump used deferments before the lottery even started, so his high lottery number claim is bogus. I’m sure you recall the lottery was started in the face of criticism for the unfair advantage that those who could go to college had in avoiding the draft.
Yeah, I’m not 100% clear on the timeline of when Trump was of age and when he left college. It’s also worth mentioning the draft back then wasn’t just for Vietnam, there was actually a continuous period of conscription from 1944-1973. When I was growing up, people could be, and were, drafted to a ~2 year period of service even during peace time. It wasn’t a huge number of people (and it increased intensely with Vietnam), but it was continuous from WWII until '73, and only 1947 saw 0 draftees.
At some point enlistments increased because you had a chance of choosing where you served if you enlisted. Draftees were on the fast track to Nam. Some guys claimed if you weren’t sent there the way to avoid it was to request to be sent there. Dubious I think, but it sure was a sucky time for a lot of guys. By the time I turned 18 it wasn’t an issue, not long after we skedaddled out of that hell hole, but I had been considering my options for years. My older brother wasn’t that high up in the lottery but never got called, it had started winding down at that point though.
I always thought this was a stupid argument (i.e. that someone is a ‘draft dodger’) when it was used against Bill Clinton, so I think this is much the same. I doubt this will phase Trump in any case…he seems pretty anti-military to me, overall. I doubt most Trump voters will care either, rightfully seeing this as merely the left lashing out for past use of this ridiculous argument and basically throwing it back in the rights face.
And it’s really unnecessary. Trump has enough REAL baggage and issues that some weak ass shit like this just muddies the waters and gives him an opportunity to focus on this and defend against it and be perceived as ‘winning’ the argument, all the while it takes the attention off real problems with him as president. It’s stupid and, if he were smart, would give him the opportunity to shift the playing field and divert attention from some of the epic gaffes he’s made in the last couple of weeks…including ones directly at the Khan’s that they should be focused on. Hell, his response to sacrifice alone should be a major focus, not this draft dodging crap. :smack:
Phil Ochs would disagree with you.
Going to college was not seen as draft dodging (I was there. My number was 11 and I got saved by Tricky Dick ending the draft.) Going to a sympathetic doctor and getting a bogus medical deferment was. There is a column in the Times today by another person who did just that.
BTW college deferments were trivial to get and good unless you really flunked out. Thus the Dylan line, in Tombstone Blues about “the old folks home in the college.”
Agreed, it’s really a distraction based on a matter of semantics that has been going on ever since back when the draft was in effect. It’s like discussing the difference between tax evasion and a tax break, the latter is perfectly lawful but people tend to look askance at it. Those informed enough or lucky enough to avail themselves of a way out of it will understandably get a negative reaction from many of those who were stuck – although in any case if you were fortunate enough to remain out of harm’s way, you should not be dismissive of those who put some skin in the game and paid the price (McCain, the Khans). That bit does make him different from Clinton, Quayle and W and rankles some people more.
Question tangentially related to this issue. My dad was born on October 25, 1941. (He has since died). During the 1960s, he had conscientious objector status. He was not drafted into the service, nor did he enlist on his own. (His father, my grandfather, was an NCO in the army. He had died by the time my dad would have been old enough for service.)
So, would my dad be considered a draft dodger? He did not flee the country nor did he hide in the states. To the best of my knowledge, no political or financial strings were pulled to assist him. (My family did not and does not now have a lot of money.) I know some of you are veterans here. How do you consider a person who did not serve because of conscientious objector? (My dad and I never really talked about this much. The one time I recall it coming up was when Desert Storm was gearing up. He mentioned digging up his info for me, but I didn’t think the draft was a real possibility. I also had a problem with the idea of my peers going into harm’s way and my staying behind.)
Just to be fair, my dad is long gone and I have issues with him that have nothing to do with military service. While I don’t want him trashed, it would not hurt my feelings if one of said he was a draft dodger. Far worse (and better) truthful things could be said about him.
My father was an associate professor toward the end of Vietnam (he had been in the ROTC, and served in the Air Force in Korea, just a couple years after the “police action” officially stopped, but troops were still there). Anyway, he talked years later about professors agonizing whenever a student earned a F, and whether to go ahead and give him a D-. No one wanted to give him the grade that sent him to Vietnam.
So instead they gave the grade that sent some other, probably poorer kid, who never got to go to college at all, to Vietnam in his place.
It’s complicated. The draft was complicated during Vietnam and it’s even more complicated trying to look at it 50 years later.
First, let’s stipulate that anyone who had a legitimate student deferment (Category 1-HS for high school and 2-S for college) wasn’t a dodger. Now, if you flunked out of school or went part-time but managed to hang on to your student deferment, THAT would be fishy.
Age matters in these things. Trump and Clinton (both born in 1946) both turned 18 before the Vietnam escalation pushed the draft quotas higher and higher. And by the time they used up all their deferments and would have been subject to the draft, there were a whole bunch of 19- and 20-year olds in the pool who probably would have been called before them.
Were Clinton’s playing the ROTC card and Trump’s bone spurs actual dodging? Not legally, they were both “legitimate.” But some local draft boards wouldn’t have accepted Clinton’s joining ROTC (because he was in graduate school at the time) and some local draft boards would have ordered Trump to be examined by another doctor, who may or may not have decided his bone spurs were bad enough to disqualify him.
Now 50 years later, who can tell how ethical or unethical they actually were?
Did he have an actual Conscientious Objector draft status? Did he perform alternative service (which was usually something like working in a hospital)? Then he wasn’t a draft dodger. He was lucky he was born in 1941 – those CO deferments were a LOT harder to get later in the 1960s.
As much as I despise Trump this is one thing I don’t give a damn about. I’d only feel differently if he actually started proposing reinstating the draft.
How does a college professor give an F to someone who never went to college at all? :dubious:
The professor doesn’t - he or she gives a “gentleman’s D” to the student they know, letting that student keep his deferment. As a result, arguably, somebody else will have to fill that student’s space in the military, and some schmuck too poor to go to college (thus unable to get a similar deferment) gets called up.
As issues with Trump go, this is trivial. The problem I have with the situation is less “he had 5 deferments,” and more his statements that he only avoided the draft through sheer luck in the lottery. As I understand it, his fifth deferment, the medical one that ultimately exempted him, was already in place before the lottery. So no, it wasn’t just great luck. Even if his number in the lottery had been #1, he wasn’t going to go to Vietnam. I find his attributing his non-veteran status to the lottery draw to be disingenuous, at best.
Personally, I consider both Clinton and Trump draft-dodgers. I don’t blame either of them for that. If I were of the relevant age during Vietnam, I would have dodged the draft, too, and I’m not only not ashamed of that fact, I’m proud of it.
What’s shameful is not dodging the draft. What’s shameful is disrespecting those who didn’t, or who even volunteered. And if you’re doing that, then in that case dodging the draft increases your shame.
It’s giving an F to the face in front of you, especially if you know he tried, and just wasn’t good with the material, vs. someone you didn’t know.
I agree. My father was too old for Vietnam, but he served in peacetime before Vietnam. My FIL and stepfather both served in Vietnam. I respect people who were dedicated to the idea of peace, or opposed to Vietnam specifically on reasoned grounds, particularly if they were demonstrators, but I don’t think that was Trump.
What is also shameful is denying that you dodged the draft, and trying to come across as though you were ready to go, but were somehow prevented from doing so against your own desires. Granted, Trump hasn’t actually said that, but he’s kinda tried to give that impression.
I’m a draft dodge baby. My dad got student deferments for a few years, but wasn’t keeping his grades up and my mom got pregnant - and oops, he had to get married and had a one child deferment.
I have a couple of friends who are also draft dodge babies - our parents call us such.
So yeah, student deferments and babies, at least my Dad did both just to avoid the draft - and he wasn’t alone.
(And my parents are still married fifty years later, it wasn’t a bad choice for them).