# Resolved: Germany was the aggressor against France in WWI **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 11, 2026, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-germany-was-the-aggressor-against-france-in-wwi/1033000 "2026-09-11T20:57:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2026, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-germany-was-the-aggressor-against-france-in-wwi/1033000/1 "2026-09-11T20:57:07Z")
1. Germany, France and Great Britain were signatories to a treaty guaranteeing Belgian neutrality. 2. German war planners relied on a plan of invading both Belgium and France in the event of a war against France and Russia. They scrapped alternate plans. As a result in any crisis where there was a risk of war between the powers, Germany left themselves with no option to limit escalation and could only opt for a maximum engagement that violated their treaties. 3. Germany declared war on France prior to France declaring war on Germany. 4. Germany issued an ultimatum to Belgium threatening invasion unless Belgium allowed German troops to pass through on the way to invading France. 5. France made deliberate efforts to avoid violating Belgian neutrality. 6. Germany’s first offensive into Belgium, which by their own admission was the first stage of their plan to advance to Paris occurred before France’s first offensive into Germany. 7. Britain issued an ultimatum to Germany that it would declare war unless Germany withdrew from Belgium. Despite their own planners thinking they were unlikely to win against Russia, France and Britain, Germany persisted because their war plans prevented them from deescalating. Discuss. Feel free to bring up the eastern front and/or Austria and Serbia if there’s value in discussing that side of it. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2026, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-germany-was-the-aggressor-against-france-in-wwi/1033000/2 "2026-09-11T21:00:41Z")
Why is this up for debate? Is there any doubt that Germany was the aggressor? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2026, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-germany-was-the-aggressor-against-france-in-wwi/1033000/3 "2026-09-11T21:39:46Z")
See the Dr Deth Pit thread… ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2026, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-germany-was-the-aggressor-against-france-in-wwi/1033000/4 "2026-09-11T21:42:16Z")
Next you’ll be telling me that Germany was the baddy in WWII. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2026, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-germany-was-the-aggressor-against-france-in-wwi/1033000/5 "2026-09-12T00:31:00Z")
France’s mobilization plans (and indeed everyone but Germany’s mobilization plans) meant “Getting the troops in the right location to defend our territory or attack our enemy” - a provocative step to be sure, but Germany’s mobilization plan was explicitly an invasion plan - set up to put their troops, not to ready positions in Gemany, but into Belgium and France (and neutral Liechtenstein as well). German forces were deeply offended when Belgium resisted their forces (as Belgium was required to, to maintain its neutral status - to allow German free passage would be in effect declaring themselves to be German allies) leading to deliberate acts of destruction of property and murder of civilians. Note that in the Franco-Prussian war, both sides managed to stay out of neutral Belgium. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2026, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-germany-was-the-aggressor-against-france-in-wwi/1033000/6 "2026-09-12T01:02:58Z")
> [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > 1. Germany, France and Great Britain were signatories to a treaty guaranteeing Belgian neutrality. > 2. German war planners relied on a plan of invading both Belgium and France in the event of a war against France and Russia. They scrapped alternate plans. As a result in any crisis where there was a risk of war between the powers, Germany left themselves with no option to limit escalation and could only opt for a maximum engagement that violated their treaties. True. True. > [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > 1. Germany declared war on France prior to France declaring war on Germany. False. The author of the Sleepwalkers found the documents that proved the French deceived the author the Guns of August and others. > [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > 1. Germany issued an ultimatum to Belgium threatening invasion unless Belgium allowed German troops to pass through on the way to invading France. > 2. France made deliberate efforts to avoid violating Belgian neutrality. > 3. Germany’s first offensive into Belgium, which by their own admission was the first stage of their plan to advance to Paris occurred before France’s first offensive into Germany. > 4. Britain issued an ultimatum to Germany that it would declare war unless Germany withdrew from Belgium. Despite their own planners thinking they were unlikely to win against Russia, France and Britain, Germany persisted because their war plans prevented them from deescalating. All true. German was certainly the aggressor vs Belgium, which although a “friendly neutral” towards France was still a Neutral. But the Invasion of Belgium was not the cause of the Great War. Who caused the Great War- well, pretty much every European Power. They were all Imperialist Colonialists (and what Belgium did in the Belgian Congo was certainly a crime). So, let us go back to the Franco-Prussian war. The facts are clear- Emperor Napoleon III got insulted over a telegram and declared war on Prussia, thinking this would be a walk over. But it was not- the North German confederation beat the crap out of the French, causing the Paris Commune and the 3rd Republic. However, the Prussians were not good winners, they forced the defeated French to sign the **Treaty of Frankfurt** , where the terms were quite harsh. The French were angry- and justifiably so at the terms of the treaty of **Treaty of Frankfurt**. They began plotting revenge. The gave the Russian government millions to build rail lines so that the Russians could mobilize quickly against the Germans in the next- which the French again, wanted and were sure they would win. This was cause #1. All the European nations started preparing for that war. Cause #2 Kaiser Wilhelm, being a fool of the first order- decided to build a great fleet- as he thought to show his relatives the British how much he admired them. This was a huge mistake. The British could not allow any nation to challenge them at sea, and started building more battleships, and also turned the British public against the Germans- instead of the old foe- the French. Cause #3 Maybe. Meanwhile Serbia hated the Austro-Hungarians for many reasons- both reasonable and not. So, they assassinated the Archduke. Cause #4. Now, this was a legit casus belli- but the Austrians (I am just gonna say Austrians or AH for the rest here) got carried away. Then that Fool- Kaiser Wilhelm, you remember him? He gave AH the “carte blanche”- which meant that Germany would back any play. So AH made unreasonable demands on Serbia, which knew Russia would likely back them up. Cause #5 Russia then mobilized- which in those days was tantamount to declaring war- since it was an expensive and difficult thing to do- The Kaiser begged the Tsar (his relative) to not do it- but the Tsar, sure that the Russian juggernaut would win as Russia had guarantees that France would declare- said no. Cause #6 Then The French, seeing their long term plans come to fruition, declared war on Germany- which was expected, since they had that deal with Russia- Cause # 7 Now yes, Germany invaded Belgium, which _was_ the act of an aggressor- no one disputes that- but it was not the cause of the Great War. By that time AH had attacked Serbia, Russia had mobilized vs AH and Germany, and France- then very soon after- Germany- declared war. > **[Why Did World War I Happen? | CFR Education](https://www.cfr.org/education/learn/reading/why-did-world-war-i-happen?gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=23819513442&gbraid=0AAAAAD-E15kQGJc7UNMtdC8fR-B93Jgo5&gclid=Cj0KCQjwzY7VBhDwARIsAFtPvBQZYcKoyDPb6Iea4-PouDsTvI42MzrsYKdMjFDCHdwKHLTPDEo1bK4aAoP7EALw_wcB)** > > Explore the complicated web of alliances, nationalism, and imperialism that triggered the start of World War I. > _Experts continue to fiercely debate this question. Yes, the 1914 assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand, heir to the throne of Austria-Hungary, triggered a series of declarations of war. However many scholars argue that several other factors had been creating the conditions for conflict in Europe for decades prior. As the military historian Liddell Hart wrote, “Fifty years were spent in the process of making Europe explosive. Five days were enough to detonate it.”_ > > To understand the origins of World War I, let’s first go back to the early 1800s. > Blockquote # Three Causes of World War I ### _The Rise of Germany_,… _Nationalism_… _Alliance Networks_ Belgium is not in there. > [@Andy\_L](#): > > France’s mobilization plans (and indeed everyone but Germany’s mobilization plans) meant “Getting the troops in the right location to defend our territory or attack our enemy” - a provocative step to be sure, but Germany’s mobilization plan was explicitly an invasion plan - set up to put their troops, not to ready positions in Gemany, but into Belgium and France (and neutral Liechtenstein as well). Yes, indeed. But the German invasion of Belgium did not start the Great War. Britain did use it as an excuse to declare vs Germany, true. But the War had already started. So, was Germany the aggressor vs Belgium- certainly. But that was not the cause of the Great War. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2026, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-germany-was-the-aggressor-against-france-in-wwi/1033000/7 "2026-09-12T01:08:04Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > France’s mobilization plans (and indeed everyone but Germany’s mobilization plans) meant “Getting the troops in the right location to defend our territory or attack our enemy” - a provocative step to be sure, but Germany’s mobilization plan was explicitly an invasion plan - set up to put their troops, not to ready positions in Gemany, but into Belgium and France (and neutral Liechtenstein as well). Not only that. Germany’s plans were based on attacking countries that they weren’t even directly planning on going to war with. Germany attacked Belgium because they were planning on fighting a war with France. And Germany attacked France because they were planning on fighting a war with Russia. What caused the Great War? Germany was afraid that an announced Russian defense program would be successful and they wouldn’t be able to attack Russia unless they did it right away. And in their muddled planning, they decided that attacking Russia meant attacking Belgium. Germany started World War I. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2026, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-germany-was-the-aggressor-against-france-in-wwi/1033000/8 "2026-09-12T01:26:40Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Britain did use it as an excuse to declare vs Germany, true. But the War had already started. Britain wa obligated at declare against Germany by its treaties; their preference would be to allow everyone else to fight, while they stayed out, and anticipated being able to ignore minor violations of neutrality, but the German invasion of Belgium was so egregious they couldn’t ignore it. PS. The war between AH and Serbia isn’t a great war. It’s just another local Balkan war, like the several that had occurred less than a decade earlier. Attacking a nation that all the Great Powers had promised to maintain the neutrality of made it a Great War ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2026, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-germany-was-the-aggressor-against-france-in-wwi/1033000/9 "2026-09-12T01:30:37Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > False. The author of the Sleepwalkers found the documents that proved the French deceived the author the Guns of August and others. On what date did Germany declare war on France, and on what date did France declare war on Germany? Be prepared to provide a cite for your claims. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2026, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-germany-was-the-aggressor-against-france-in-wwi/1033000/10 "2026-09-12T01:39:43Z")
DD is still claiming his beliefs (including that all the great powers, especially France were equally guilty in precipitating WWI) are supported by The Sleepwalkers. Clearly, he has misstated the conclusions of the book, which itself is a revisionist work at odds with the historic consensus. For a good summary of the book’s dubious contentions and DD’s misinterpretation of them, check out this post. > [@I pit DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-drdeth/933971/2394): > > In the interests of clarifying things. I assume that his contention derives from Christopher Clark’s The Sleepwalkers, a book he intermittently and inexplicably also calls Sleepwalker. This is a revisionist text, although not—I would argue—in an especially pejorative sense. With the caveats that: I did study German history at university (as part of a double major in anthropology), but I never finished the capstone course so I’m maybe 1% more qualified than a layman to comment, and I would cal… Excerpt: > [@](#): > > Notably, Clark (in _The Sleepwalkers_) does not claim that France and Russia declared war on Germany. He is quite clear that Germany declared war on Russia, and quite clear that Germany’s consequent military planning necessitated preemptive war with France. Nor does Clark claim that France or Russia were responsible for a “lie […] fed to Tuchman, by falsifying records.” > > …Clark does not allege that France intended war with Germany—indeed he acknowledges that France was eager to avoid provocation and does not argue that France withdrawing its military from the border was anything other than an attempt at conciliation. Without Austria-Hungary’s intent to completely crush Serbia, and Germany egging them on and being determined to carry out its version of the Schlieffen Plan to which it had devoted so much study and preparation, there would have been no war. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2026, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-germany-was-the-aggressor-against-france-in-wwi/1033000/11 "2026-09-12T01:42:24Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > (and neutral Liechtenstein as well). I mean Luxembourg; sorry ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2026, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-germany-was-the-aggressor-against-france-in-wwi/1033000/12 "2026-09-12T03:27:03Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > _The Rise of Germany_,… _Nationalism_… _Alliance Networks_ These are big picture, long-term causes. They aren’t about which countries were the aggressors in 1914. German and French nationalism as well as the ascendency of Prussia were long- term causes in thr Franco-Prussian war, but those don’t negate the fact that France started the war. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2026, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-germany-was-the-aggressor-against-france-in-wwi/1033000/13 "2026-09-12T03:32:26Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > On what date did Germany declare war on France, and on what date did France declare war on Germany? Be prepared to provide a cite for your claims. Yes, the claim that the widely cited order of events when the war xited is wrong based on some kind of fraud or forgery is extraordinary and requires specifics and cited evidence. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2026, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-germany-was-the-aggressor-against-france-in-wwi/1033000/14 "2026-09-12T18:44:31Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > Britain wa obligated at declare against Germany by its treaties; That is not true. > **[British declaration of war upon Germany (1914)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_declaration_of_war_upon_Germany_(1914))** > > The British declaration of war upon Germany occurred on 4 August 1914. The declaration was a result of German refusal to remove troops from neutral Belgium. In 1839, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, France, and Prussia (the largest predecessor of the German Empire) had signed the Treaty of London which guaranteed Belgium's sovereignty. However, the actual reasoning had at least as much to do with the British fright that lack of their help leading to a possible defeat of France cou... > [@Andy\_L](#): > > PS. The war between AH and Serbia isn’t a great war. It’s just another local Balkan war, like the several that had occurred less than a decade earlier. Attacking a nation that all the Great Powers had promised to maintain the neutrality of made it a Great War True, and if Russia had not, in retaliation attacked AH and Germany, it would have been a local war. But Russia was the aggressor among the Great Powers. It mobilized first. > [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > These are big picture, long-term causes. They aren’t about which countries were the aggressors in 1914. > > German and French nationalism as well as the ascendency of Prussia were long- term causes in thr Franco-Prussian war, but those don’t negate the fact that France started the war. True. > [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > Yes, the claim that the widely cited order of events when the war xited is wrong based on some kind of fraud or forgery is extraordinary and requires specifics and cited evidence. The Sleepwalkers provided said evidence. But it does not really make any difference. France and Russia made no secret of the fact that as soon as Russia Mobilized, so would France and they would attack Germany from both directions > [@Jackmannii](#): > > DD is still claiming his beliefs (including that all the great powers, especially France were equally guilty in precipitating WWI) are supported by The Sleepwalkers. > > Clearly, he has misstated the conclusions of the book, which itself is a revisionist work at odds with the historic consensus. > **[The Sleepwalkers: How Europe Went to War in 1914](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sleepwalkers:_How_Europe_Went_to_War_in_1914)** > > The Sleepwalkers: How Europe Went to War in 1914 is a book by Australian historian Christopher Clark, first published in 2012. The book covers the causes of the First World War, starting in 1903 with the murder of Alexander I of Serbia and ending with the outbreak of World War One. In The Sleepwalkers, Clark argues that no sole country is to blame for starting the First World War, rather, each country unwittingly stumbled into it. This is contrary to the conventional theory, the Fischer thesis, w... > In _The Sleepwalkers_, Clark argues that no sole country is to blame for starting the First World War, rather, each country unwittingly stumbled into it. This is contrary to the conventional theory, the [Fischer thesis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischer_thesis "Fischer thesis"), which argues that Germany bore the main responsibility for the war.[[1]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sleepwalkers:_How_Europe_Went_to_War_in_1914#cite_note-1)… Furthermore, while Clark does not seek to place responsibility on Russia alone, he places more emphasis on Russian actions than many previous historians, stating: “Yes, the Germans declared war on Russia before the Russians declared war on Germany. But by the time that happened, the Russian government had been moving troops and equipment to the German front for a week. The Russians were the first great power to issue an order of general mobilisation and the first Russo-German clash took place on German, not on Russian soil, following the Russian invasion of East Prussia. That doesn’t mean that the Russians should be ‘blamed’ for the outbreak of war. Rather it alerts us to the complexity of the events that brought war about and the limitations of any thesis that focuses on the culpability of one actor.”[[7]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sleepwalkers:_How_Europe_Went_to_War_in_1914#cite_note-7) > > The book challenges the imputation, hitherto widely accepted by mainstream scholars since [1919](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles "Treaty of Versailles"), of a peculiar “war guilt” on the part of the [German Empire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Empire "German Empire"), instead mapping carefully the complex mechanism of events and misjudgements that led to war.[[8]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sleepwalkers:_How_Europe_Went_to_War_in_1914#cite_note-DieWeltCC25Oct2013-8)[[9]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sleepwalkers:_How_Europe_Went_to_War_in_1914#cite_note-FAZCC09Sep2013-9) There was, in 1914, nothing inevitable about it. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > For a good summary of the book’s dubious contentions and DD’s misinterpretation of them, check out this post. That post is not here in GD. If that Poster wants to come here and make those points, fine, but you quoting another poster as you argument fails. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2026, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-germany-was-the-aggressor-against-france-in-wwi/1033000/15 "2026-09-12T19:09:59Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But Russia was the aggressor among the Great Powers. It mobilized first. The question isn’t who mobilized when. It’s who took hostile action when. Mobilization is not a hostile action until your mobilization takes you into another nation’s territory. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2026, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-germany-was-the-aggressor-against-france-in-wwi/1033000/16 "2026-09-12T19:16:35Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The question isn’t who mobilized when. It’s who took hostile action when. Mobilization is not a hostile action until your mobilization takes you into another nation’s territory. In the Great War, since Mobilization was such a big deal- extensive, and very expensive,- every nation assumed Mobilization was an act of war and a tacit declaration of war. [https://www.quora.com/Help-with-understanding-Plan-17-in-WWI-why-was-Russian-mobilization-tantamount-to-an-act-of-war-and-why-was-there-a-race-for-the-sea](https://www.quora.com/Help-with-understanding-Plan-17-in-WWI-why-was-Russian-mobilization-tantamount-to-an-act-of-war-and-why-was-there-a-race-for-the-sea) ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2026, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-germany-was-the-aggressor-against-france-in-wwi/1033000/17 "2026-09-12T19:55:55Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@Andy\_L](#): > > > > Britain wa obligated at declare against Germany by its treaties; > > That is not true. Your citation agrees with my statement regarding facts. It adds an interpretation of facts which is interesting but not particularly relevant. Once again, Germany was prohibited by freely signed treaties from violating Belgium (and Luxembourg’s) neutrality. They did it anyway and “We really wanted to” is not an excuse. Britain was obligated by treaty to enforce Belgium (and Luxembourg’s) neutrality - the fact that they had (if the Wiki article’s _interpretation_ is correct) additional motives is not particularly relevant. If a “mandated-reporter” reports potential child abuse, as they are legally required to do, the parent gets no leeway by claiming that the reporter also hated them. Even if the reporter had hated the parent for decades, the legal obligation is the legal obligation. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2026, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-germany-was-the-aggressor-against-france-in-wwi/1033000/18 "2026-09-12T20:06:46Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@Chronos](#): > > > > The question isn’t who mobilized when. It’s who took hostile action when. Mobilization is not a hostile action until your mobilization takes you into another nation’s territory. > > In the Great War, since Mobilization was such a big deal- extensive, and very expensive,- every nation assumed Mobilization was an act of war and a tacit declaration of war. A big deal in the way a serial domestic abuser might seek to justify their criminal behavior in a “look what you made me do” sort of way. Mobilization was not an act of war. Full stop. It did not justify Germany engaging in a preemptive attack against Russia’s western ally, let alone through a neutral nation. And this is just straight up weasel-wording: > The Russians were the first great power to issue an order of general mobilisation and the first Russo-German clash took place on German, not on Russian soil, following the Russian invasion of East Prussia. Hmm, yeah. Russia advanced into German territory before Germany advanced into Russian territory. What do you want to bet that’s because the _entire premise_ of the Schlieffen Plan was that Germany would start the war by advancing against Russia’s western ally first, and only try to hold off the Russian military to start with, and not shift to a full-on offensive in the east until after it knocked France out of the war? So the assertion is only controversial to the extent it is disingenuously framed as if it’s some kind of smoking gun showing that Russia was somehow the initial aggressor in WWI. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2026, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-germany-was-the-aggressor-against-france-in-wwi/1033000/19 "2026-09-12T20:17:20Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > [https://www.quora.com/Help-with-understanding-Plan-17-in-WWI-why-was-Russian-mobilization-tantamount-to-an-act-of-war-and-why-was-there-a-race-for-the-sea](https://www.quora.com/Help-with-understanding-Plan-17-in-WWI-why-was-Russian-mobilization-tantamount-to-an-act-of-war-and-why-was-there-a-race-for-the-sea) Please quote the part of the Quora answer that actually says Russian mobilization was an act of war. It was provocative, indicating that Russia would defend its ally (the ally that had capitulated to Austrohungary’s ultimatum), but if mobilizing forces is an act of war then the US went to war with the USSR in 1963 (DEFCON 2 is certainly the equivalent of mobilization - if not worse!). Note that A-H had partially mobilized in 1912 (when the First Balkan War was about to begin) and no one took that as a declaration of war (and A-H sat that war out). A-H also partially mobilized in late July 1914. Was that a declaration of war? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2026, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-germany-was-the-aggressor-against-france-in-wwi/1033000/20 "2026-09-12T21:45:10Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@Jackmannii](#): > > > > For a good summary of the book’s dubious contentions and DD’s misinterpretation of them, check out this post. > > That post is not here in GD. Well, that’s one way of avoiding uncomfortable facts. Odd that to this day you’ve never attempted to refute them in the original forum where the post appeared. As for the defense that some-Wikipedia-editor-seems-to-be-as-impressed-with-Clark-as-I-am, note that that person says: > [@](#): > > …widely accepted by mainstream scholars since 1919 (is) a peculiar “war guilt” on the part of the [German Empire So you’re taking one author’s interpretation, which you’ve mangled, while failing to address its deficiencies or explaining why it’s “peculiar” to agree with the overwhelming consensus of historians in assigning blame to imperial Germany for violating neutral countries and invading France, in the absence of which world war would never have occurred. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-germany-was-the-aggressor-against-france-in-wwi/1033000.md?page=2)