Resolved: Jesus did not exist

Well, not unless they inspired the Gospels.

Not the same thing at all.

The problem with Arthur deserves its own thread, but it is quite unlike that of Jesus. At base, the Arthur of Mallory is pure myth. There may or may not have been a romano-british war leader who inspired the (much later) mythology, but he resembled not at all the (invented hundreds of years later) mythological Arthur of legend.

For example, the Arthur of legend was supposed to have created a unified kingdom, have invaded Europe, etc. It is essential to the legend that he do these things. They did not happen, ergo “Arthur” is pure myth.

In contrast with Arthur, the Jesus of the Gospels could very easily have “really existed” in the sense of being a Judaic cult leader who inspired a group of disciples who later (or their descendants) wrote the Gospels, incorporating his sayings. We can of course never really know, but it certainly seems more likely than not; after all, something clearly created this cult, and if not an inspirational leader, then what?

The fact that the gospels are riddled with inconsistecies is just par for the course for ancient history. Similarly, there are many inconsistencies in the records concerning much more historically significant (at least, in their own time) figures.

Skammer, the best I recall is that the early dates that scholars put on Mark starting about 70 C.E…, and others following about this time are that they didn’t have the miracle stories then, but I believe were mostly teachings. I think my source for this was McCabe, but I’d have to dig for it.

You might be thinking of the Q source embedded in Matthew and Luke which is all sayings and does not contain miracle stories (or narrative stories at all).

Diogenes does far more than just recognizing a certain measure of doubt. Rather, he flat out declares that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were definitely NOT the authors of the books in question – a claim that grossly misrepresents the broad spectrum of scholarship on this matter.

Indeed, he goes beyond even that. Diogenes goes so far as to conclusively and emphatically declare that the authors of these books – whoever they were – were complete strangers to the Apostles. Such a claim is decidedly extreme, and it goes far beyond what even liberal scholars would comfortably state regarding their authorship.

That is something to keep in mind when evaluating DtC’s claims. He states things emphatically, and to the casual reader, this makes him sound knowledgeable. In reality though, he pulls these claims out of thin air, grossly exaggerates the actual state of scholarship, demands standards of historical evidence that go far beyond what actual historians require, and generally resorts to bluster when painted into a corner. And he does so, as you and several other posters have correctly pointed out, by repeated assertion and without providing any actual citations for his claims.

There are two separate concepts in Jewish Law, either one of which might be interpreted as being ‘put out of the synagogues’. Those are the concepts of Nidui and Cherem, both of which are laid out at length in the Talmud. In short, Nidui is less severe and Cherem is more severe. Nidui is a temporary expulsion from the synagogue and an order that all persons keep four cubits away from the person being punished. Cherem was anathema; excommunication, in other words. (And was, in fact, later transformed by the Catholic Church into their version of excommunication.) Further, within that binary distinction, there appear to have been further divisions in severity of punishment.

What we typically think of as the expulsion of the Christians from the synagogues, known as the birkat haminim, was certainly a case of Cherem occuring around 85-90 A. D., though even there we don’t have as many details as some people seem to think. If John 9:22 was a reference to case of Nidui, then there is no error. In addition to the simple fact that Nidui was more common and plausible, there are several other facts that support this interpretation. First of all, John 9:22 uses the Greek word aposynagogos, and according to Dr. Blomberg “occurs nowhere else in early discussions of the birkat haminim.” Hence it seems that John was aware of the possible confusion and deliberately tried to avoid it by choosing a different word. Second, nothing else in John’s Gospel is in keeping with there being Cherem in place against the Christians, and much only makes sense if there was not.

I’ll buy that the Q source is just a collection of sayings, but that’s a far cry from stating that the earliest versions of Mark (or any of the Gospels) had no miracles in them. There’s no evidence of that at all; in fact the earliest manuscripts we do have have very few and minor differences for the most part.

Hey Skammer, I found what I was looking for. All of my books on McCabe don’t have a suffix, so it takes me awhile sometimes to find what I’m looking for; especially since I spent most of my reading on all of this some 20 years ago. But I remember going back over this just recently, including finding an on-line source for it too which you can read from it in its entirely here since it is too long to put here, but I will quote some of it.

Thanks razncain. Some of that I have no issue with (I think the earlier dates he gives for the Gospels are in the ballpark, although Mark especially may have been even earlier). The second half kind of goes off the rails, though; his “very serious evidence” that the Gospels were not written in the first centruy is an argument from silence and ignores internal evidence of earlier authorship. We can’t assume the Gospels hadn’t been written yet just because none of the earliest patricarchs quoted them. At the most, this indicates that they had not yet been widely distributed or widely accepted as canonical.

While I am not convinced at how compelling the evidence is, from what I can tell there is a little more to it then just guesses. See here.

Now, Justin Martyr could have been going off of early tradition. He was, after all, 100 years after the fact. The second bit about motivation is also a little more then just a guess, but not much more, I admit.

It seems to me that both Mark (disciple of Peter), and to a lesser extent Luke (a companion of Paul), are both fairly obscure figures to attach to the Gospels that bear their name. That’s not proof of course, but most pseudo-Gospels are attributed to more major figures such as Thomas, Mary Magdalene, or Peter.

I’m not convinced of Markan or Lukan authorship necessarily, but I think we lack convincing evidence either way.

Well, I’m not definitive and neither are the experts that I’m aware of. I think that some arguments can be made for authorship and others not so much. Here’s some info I’ve scrounged up (I’m just listing some sources here, there’s more to it then what I’ve posted/ pro and con):

I’ve covered Mark, here’s info on Matthew:
From here:

Luke, here:

And here’s John:

There is more to each of these and I would suggest that those interested read the source material, as I’ve just tried to quickly post some stuff to spark conversation.

I would agree with this.

I think that anyone making definitive statements has to put forth a great case (towards those two, not the others).

You seem to be arguing that there was some kind of temporary expulsion of Jesus’ followers from synagogues prior to his crucifixion. Cite that such an expulsion ever occurred? Not a single other writing, inside the NT or out, makes refernece to it. Why should we magine such a thing when it clearly makes more sense to assume that John was referring to the expulsion around 85-90 that his audience already knew about (the objection that John uses Greek words to refer to it instead of Hebrew is specious to the point of being silly. John was speaking to a Greek speaking Gentile audience, not a Jewish one.

I agree - I’m skeptical of the others as well. As a Christian I give Matthew and John equal canonical authority to the others, but I acknowledge that the identity of the true author of Matthew has been lost and that John was quite possibly written by the Johanine community a few decades after the others.

I assure you, you don’t know what you’re talking about on this subject. There is no evoidence at all in favor of those authorship trafditins and an abundance against. In the piece I linked up thread, I go into great detail expounding on this. If you wish, I can certainly do it in thread too. Your perecption of scholarly consensus on this is in error.

I know. I was just suggesting that razncain might have been confused about what he read.

Well, I’ve tried to continue posting here three times now, and every. single. time. something gets in the way. No point in restarting now. Geez, ever have a day like that? Where everything keep getting in the way?

Those names were taken from letters of Paul. Folk traditions probably accrued to them in conjunction with them as being possible authors of Gospels which originally had unknown authors.

There are severe problems with both traditions, though, and really no good evidence to support them. They are 2nd Century traditions at best.

They are both mentioned once each in Colossians and Philemon (and 2 Timothy, but ISTR Pauline authorship of 2 Tim is doubtful). Mark is also mentioned once in 1 Peter. But Paul mentions a lot of other folks in his letters too, and it just seems odd that someone would intentionally pick one of these obscure disciples when there would be more cache in having your gospel written by Barnabas or Silas or any of the apostles (like most of the extra-canonical gospels did).

They had to pick someone, I guess. Whatever the reason, there is not any substantive evidence connecting them to those Gospels.