# Resolved: John McCain does not have the integrity to be President **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 11, 2008, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149 "2008-09-11T20:18:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/1 "2008-09-11T20:18:22Z")
For all the criticism and defense both sides have waged against and for Sarah Palin on these boards over the past 2 weeks, we seem to have put John McCain on the back burner to focus to specifically on her. I realize that the primary and critical concern is her fitness or not to become President, should that unfortunate need arise, and it is important to address those concerns. And I know we’ve touched on what this choice says about John McCain, but only in the most peripheral way. Conservative columnist Andrew Sullivan takes that subject straight on in a piece published yesterday. > [@Andrew Sullivan](#): > > For me, this surreal moment - like the entire surrealism of the past ten days - is not really about Sarah Palin or Barack Obama or pigs or fish or lipstick. It’s about John McCain. The one thing I always thought I knew about him is that he is a decent and honest person. When he knows, as every sane person must, that Obama did not in any conceivable sense mean that Sarah Palin is a pig, what did he do? Did he come out and say so and end this charade? Or did he acquiesce in and thereby enable the mindless Rovianism that is now the core feature of his campaign? > > ``` > So far, he has let us all down. My guess is he will continue to do so. And that decision, for my part, ends whatever respect I once had for him. On core moral issues, where this man knew what the right thing was, and had to pick between good and evil, he chose evil. . . > > ``` He goes on to discuss McCain supporting Bush over fellow Viet Nam Vet, John Kerry; his capitulation into enshrining torture into law; and how he started this campaign using a “series of grotesque, trivial and absurd MTV-style attacks on Obama’s virtues and [disgusting implications about Obama’s patriotism]”, then segues back into McCain’s choice of Sarah Palin as his running mate. > [@Andrew Sullivan](#): > > Yes, McCain made a decision that revealed many appalling things about him. In the end, his final concern is not national security. **No one who cares about national security would pick as vice-president someone who knows nothing about it as his replacement. No one who cares about this country’s safety would gamble the security of the world on a total unknown because she polled well with the Christianist base.** No person who truly believed that the surge was integral to this country’s national security would pick as his veep candidate a woman who, so far as we can tell anything, opposed it at the time. > > ``` > McCain has demonstrated in the last two months that he does not have the character to be president of the United States. And that is why it is more important than ever to ensure that Barack Obama is the next president. The alternative is now unthinkable. **And McCain - no one else - has proved it.** > > ``` > > [http://www.truthout.org/article/mccains-integrity](http://www.truthout.org/article/mccains-integrity) I agree. John McCain does not have the integrity to be President of the United States. Discuss. ---
**Author:** ![Peanut\_Gallery](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/838e76/32.png) [@Peanut\_Gallery](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peanut_Gallery)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/2 "2008-09-11T20:37:04Z")
I wholeheartedly agree. And anyone who supports his campaign at this point has judgment as bad as his. I would draw a distinction between “voting R to vote for conservative ideas or against liberal policies” and “supporting McCain’s campaign”. The former get a wee bit of cred, the latter are too far gone. Palin fans are in the second group. But he is still sure to get the support of about half the nation regardless of who he is or how he campaigns (Palin or none). How about: The Republican Party does not have the integrity to treat people like adults. Or: Americans do not have the integrity to DEMAND to be treated like adults. At some point I quit blaming them for pulling such stupid tricks because they Work. Every. Time. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/3 "2008-09-11T20:41:20Z")
I definitely agree with the sentiments expressed in that article. McCain’s metamorphosis over the last several years (directly coinciding with him being primped for, then becoming the nominee) has been a tremendous let down for me. I suppose, though, that in the grand scheme of things, this is the real him, so I guess it’s good to know. I guess I just just always held the opinion that while we didn’t agree on everything, I respected McCain’s integrity. He always seemed to stand up for what he believed to be right, even if it directly conflicted with his party’s 11th Commandment. He was the moderate Republican and that I respected, because I think extremity in beliefs is a sign of a bad leader. But now? Yeah. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/4 "2008-09-11T20:46:28Z")
Integrity? Harding? Nixon? GeeDubya? Clearly, integrity is not prerequisite. Point of fact, it is almost certainly a disqualifier. How many compromises are necessary to rise to the top, who do you have to suck off to get the money, who has the money to give? I think Obama is an excellent candidate, and support him wholeheartedly. But I don’t kid myself, the Unicorn of Purity does not rise up from the sewers, that is a fantasy, and fantasies are dangerous. The only way you get a better democracy is by improving the electorate, educate, enlighten and empower. When the people lead, the leaders will follow, when we demand integrity, we will get it. And not one day sooner. ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/5 "2008-09-11T20:56:22Z")
> [@Peanut\_Gallery](#): > > At some point I quit blaming them for pulling such stupid tricks because they Work. Every. Time. True. I don’t even want to go into how much faith I’ve lost in my country. I don’t even hang out with my fellow americans here, where I have a choice not to. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/6 "2008-09-11T21:04:12Z")
Umm… isn’t advising the President on national security the job of the National Security Advisor(s)? So as long as there’s a decent NSA, it’s not a problem. One could equally make your claim about the treasury, or veterans, or many other areas. So really, there’s absolutely no cause for complaint. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/7 "2008-09-11T21:08:14Z")
I think the possibility exists that McCain is not so much deficient in character as he is too old. I know that’s politically incorrect to say, but it’s a pretty valid concern. It seems to be a common feature of aging that a person become more willful in little trivial ways, but very easy persuaded and unable to think critically in others. My parents are younger than John McCain and they’re already becoming astoundingly gullible and easily fooled - a few months ago my Mom almost fell for the door-to-door “let me see your gas bill” scam. Some people start losing it at 60, some at 70, some at 80, and I think McCain started losing it - well, sometime between 64 and 72, it would appear. It could simply be that McCain is being led astray over the last few years. “You HAVE to do this, Senator. It’s the way these campaigns work…” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/8 "2008-09-11T21:09:00Z")
[A career soldier and Vietnam vet weighs in:](http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/9/10/172053/416/947/593992) > [@](#): > > It is with great sadness that I say to you that John McCain is not an honorable man today. The reason I say this is because I am observing and hearing reported by every major news organization in this country that he and his running mate are participating in and personally articulating blatant lies. These are not the actions of honorable people. When one is aspiring to the highest and second highest public offices in the land it is incumbent upon one to speak truth and only truth and to communicate about those issues that are vital and of importance to the citizens of the nation. It is not honorable for individuals to speak lies to the citizens and make unproven accusations against those whom they oppose. When one opposes another person in vying for public office it becomes even more important to insure that one speaks the truth and deals with issues and substantive differences and not innuendo and accusation. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/9 "2008-09-11T21:16:38Z")
John McCain has more integrity than either of our last two presidents. You are not accomplishing anything by assaulting his character, except for giving people a bitter taste in their mouth. You aren’t helping. Please stop. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/10 "2008-09-11T21:18:13Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > He goes on to discuss McCain supporting Bush over fellow Viet Nam Vet, John Kerry I don’t understand this part. Is he saying that one must always support a Viet Nam veteran for President over a candidate who was never in Viet Nam? I trust the Obama-ites see the difficulties with that position. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/11 "2008-09-11T21:21:33Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > John McCain has more integrity than either of our last two presidents. You are not accomplishing anything by assaulting his character, except for giving people a bitter taste in their mouth. > > You aren’t helping. Please stop. Having more integrity than Bush isn’t a hard deal. You aren’t helping. Seriously, I have more integrity than Bush, and I’m no saint. Clinton? Maybe, maybe not. McCain ghas not impressed me at all, though. The bitter taste I have is that he might win. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/12 "2008-09-11T21:25:13Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I don’t understand this part. Is he saying that one must always support a Viet Nam veteran for President over a candidate who was never in Viet Nam? No, John McCain chose his party over the man he had not only served with, but had traveled with to Viet Nam and had worked with on veterans issues. The John McCain I used to respect would have damned the Swift Boat campaign. ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/13 "2008-09-11T21:26:23Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > John McCain has more integrity than either of our last two presidents. Your measurement is false (Not as bad as a Nazi, and all that…) At what point does a demonstrable reduction in integrity become worthy of comment? ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/14 "2008-09-11T21:37:25Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > John McCain has more integrity than either of our last two presidents. You are not accomplishing anything by assaulting his character, except for giving people a bitter taste in their mouth. > > You aren’t helping. Please stop. Nonsense. There is an actual issue here that is debatable. Throwing aside overly dramatic concepts as choosing evil over good, I have to say that I was disappointed in McCain’s stand on torture. As someone who has endured it (I think he’s mentioned being prisoner somewhere. Damned if I can remember though), you’d think he’d be against it. Now it seems he’s against it with regards to the army but at best neutral with regards to the CIA. And his recent attacks on Obama (lipstick on pigs and teaching sex ed to five year olds) seem pretty far from something he would’ve done back when I supported him in 2000. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/15 "2008-09-11T21:40:34Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > John McCain has more integrity than either of our last two presidents. You are not accomplishing anything by assaulting his character, except for giving people a bitter taste in their mouth. > > You aren’t helping. Please stop. John McCain _ **had** _ more integrity than either of our last two presidents. If you read the linked article and the article later posted by a Vietnam Vet I think they make a pretty compelling case as to why McCain no longer possess the integrity you speak of and the vet mentions that past honor, while noble is not a shield meaning you cannot be held accountable for current actions. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/16 "2008-09-11T21:41:26Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > John McCain has more integrity than either of our last two presidents. Had. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/17 "2008-09-11T21:44:09Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [A career soldier and Vietnam vet weighs in:](http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/9/10/172053/416/947/593992) Ewwww, cooties! You sent me to KOS, that cesspool of liberalism - ptewhy, blech. I need a shower now. 😉 You omitted the best part of the article; the conclusion: > [@](#): > > The fact that John McCain is a former Naval Officer and a sitting United States Senator makes this lack of honor horribly reprehensible. But I think what makes this lack of honor so disgusting and even more vile is that he would lose himself to the point of using his own sacrifice and service as a shield to commit such petit dishonorable acts of lying. Conservative, liberal, or Independent, share his beliefs or not, it would be morally reprehensible for anyone to support someone who displays so little honor. Sometimes we must call them like they are. Prisoner of war or not service to country or not there is a line and John McCain and his running mate have crossed the line. > > **This nation has endured eight long years of lies and deceptions from the two highest ranking public figures in the country and virtually their entire administration. Our honor as a nation is not just blemished but in tatters and we cannot endure another four or eight years of the same. If for no other reason than the fact that John McCain and his vice presidential running mate have publicly lied and continue to lie this nation needs to insure that he does not occupy the office of the president. Our nation needs honor above all else at this crucial point in our history. With honor comes respect and from these come all else.** > [@Mosier](#): > > John McCain has more integrity than either of our last two presidents. You are not accomplishing anything by assaulting his character, except for giving people a bitter taste in their mouth. > > You aren’t helping. Please stop. _I’m_ not helping? Did you miss who the author of the article who makes the allegation is? **Conservative columnist Andrew Sullivan** Seems to me the one with the bitter taste in his mouth is Andrew Sullivan. Many of us who once held Senator McCain in high esteem are embittered by his fall from grace by embracing the failed Bush policies, including torture, seeking (and obviously using) advice from Karl Rove in this campaign, and sinking to outright LIES in his advertising and stump speeches. Not fudging, not twisted or different interpretation – LIES. One who lies – _knowingly and intentionally_, cannot, by definition, have integrity. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/18 "2008-09-11T21:49:01Z")
Resolved: this is another political rant that belongs in the pit. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/19 "2008-09-11T21:51:09Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Resolved: this is another political rant that belongs in the pit. Why? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/20 "2008-09-11T21:53:06Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > No, John McCain chose his party over the man he had not only served with, but had traveled with to Viet Nam and had worked with on veterans issues. So why isn’t Kerry supporting McCain for President now? Regards, Shodan [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149.md?page=2)