# Resolved: John McCain does not have the integrity to be President **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 11, 2008, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149 "2008-09-11T20:18:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/21 "2008-09-11T21:53:37Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Resolved: this is another political rant that belongs in the pit. We’re debating John McCain’s integrity, as outlined in the linked article. Do you have anything you’d like to discuss wrt that, or do you just want to Jr. Mod.? ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/22 "2008-09-11T21:57:20Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So why isn’t Kerry supporting McCain for President now? Did you even bother to read the linked article? > [@Andrew Sullivan](#): > > **When he knew that George W. Bush’s war in Iraq was a fiasco and catastrophe, and before Donald Rumsfeld quit** , McCain endorsed George W. Bush against his fellow Vietnam vet, John Kerry in 2004. By that decision, McCain lost any credibility that he can ever put country first. **He put party first and his own career first ahead of what he knew was best for the country**. I believe that both in 2004 and now, in 2008, John Kerry is doing what he knows is best for the country, and that’s why he’s not supporting John McCain. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/23 "2008-09-11T22:26:50Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Why? Because the quotes listed in the original op were a strawman political rant. Obama reacts to people reacting to his political foot-in-mouth and somehow that’s a lack of character on McCain’s part. Sullivan made a declarative statement that in no way could it be inferred that Obama called Palin a pig. While he is entitled to his opinion it was a clear attempt at humor to relate Palin’s recent lipstick joke back on her. Instead of removing his foot from his mouth and apologizing for a minor gaff he feigned indignation after he was called on it. Obama is making his own mountain from which to view his molehill. To the extent that anyone will take the bait and make an issue out of it is a pretty stupid gambit to play. None of this is a reflection on McCain’s integrity. He is not the keeper of Obama’s foot. That’s why this is a rant. ---
**Author:** ![Slacker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6bbea6/32.png) [@Slacker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slacker)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/24 "2008-09-11T22:28:37Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So why isn’t Kerry supporting McCain for President now? Because no self-respecting veteran would bend over and kiss the ass of the person who just screwed him over when he ran for president just to further his own future political ambitions… oh wait. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/25 "2008-09-11T22:28:42Z")
There’s compromise and going along, and there’s active scumbaggery. I don’t think there’s anything egregious about McCain not leaving his party to support Kerry, or (as distasteful as it was to watch) his snuggling up to Bush to stay in good with the party and preserve his shot at the ring. His capitulation on torture was pushing it, but maybe defensible in a highly lawyered way as a necessary compromise to get the nomination (maybe comparable to Obama going belly up on FISA). The only way to get into the White House is up from the sewer and through the toilet. I understand that. But McCain has gone beyond just doing what he has to do and is now resorting to straight up fucking lying and smearing – something Obama has _[not_ done to him, despite his many vulnerabilities. With those two attacks yesterday, McCain really has behaved dishonorably. It’s not impossible that he could get his honor back, and I wouldn’t say he _can’t_ be an honorable POTUS, but he’s really hurt himself lately. ---
**Author:** ![A\_shameful\_cracka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@A\_shameful\_cracka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_shameful_cracka)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/26 "2008-09-11T22:28:44Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Because the quotes listed in the original op were a strawman political rant. Obama reacts to people reacting to his political foot-in-mouth and somehow that’s a lack of character on McCain’s part. > > Sullivan made a declarative statement that in no way could it be inferred that Obama called Palin a pig. While he is entitled to his opinion it was a clear attempt at humor to relate Palin’s recent lipstick joke back on her. Instead of removing his foot from his mouth and apologizing for a minor gaff he feigned indignation after he was called on it. Obama is making his own mountain from which to view his molehill. To the extent that anyone will take the bait and make an issue out of it is a pretty stupid gambit to play. > > None of this is a reflection on McCain’s integrity. He is not the keeper of Obama’s foot. > > That’s why this is a rant. How is this “clear” when Obama has used the same “lipstick on a pig” statement many times before Palin was even nominated? Was it also clear that McCain was calling Hillary a pig when he used the exact same phrase in relation to her health plan? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/27 "2008-09-11T22:33:53Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Because the quotes listed in the original op were a strawman political rant. Obama reacts to people reacting to his political foot-in-mouth and somehow that’s a lack of character on McCain’s part. > > Sullivan made a declarative statement that in no way could it be inferred that Obama called Palin a pig. While he is entitled to his opinion it was a clear attempt at humor to relate Palin’s recent lipstick joke back on her. Instead of removing his foot from his mouth and apologizing for a minor gaff he feigned indignation after he was called on it. Obama is making his own mountain from which to view his molehill. To the extent that anyone will take the bait and make an issue out of it is a pretty stupid gambit to play. > > None of this is a reflection on McCain’s integrity. He is not the keeper of Obama’s foot. > > That’s why this is a rant. As I think this thread includes as its subject _all_ of McCain’s lapses of integrity, I think that you have not argued against it’s existence in any real way. Are you saying that McCain has never made reference to Obama’s recent ‘lipstick on a pig’ comment? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/28 "2008-09-11T22:35:35Z")
> [@A\_shameful\_cracka](#): > > How is this “clear” when Obama has used the same “lipstick on a pig” statement many times before Palin was even nominated? Was it also clear that McCain was calling Hillary a pig when he used the exact same phrase in relation to her health plan? It was clear that he was trying to flip a recent Palin joke that got a lot of laughs. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/29 "2008-09-11T22:37:09Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Because the quotes listed in the original op were a strawman political rant. Obama reacts to people reacting to his political foot-in-mouth and somehow that’s a lack of character on McCain’s part. > > Sullivan made a declarative statement that in no way could it be inferred that Obama called Palin a pig. While he is entitled to his opinion it was a clear attempt at humor to relate Palin’s recent lipstick joke back on her. Instead of removing his foot from his mouth and apologizing for a minor gaff he feigned indignation after he was called on it. Obama is making his own mountain from which to view his molehill. To the extent that anyone will take the bait and make an issue out of it is a pretty stupid gambit to play. > > None of this is a reflection on McCain’s integrity. He is not the keeper of Obama’s foot. > > That’s why this is a rant. How did Obama put his foot in his mouth here exactly? By agreeing with Sarah Palin that she wears lipstick, or by calling her a pig? Oh wait, he did neither. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/30 "2008-09-11T22:38:08Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It was clear that he was trying to flip a recent Palin joke that got a lot of laughs. And y’know what? It worked. Obama’s quip is both truer and funnier than Palin’s. When she said that crap about community organizers she came in leading with her chin. She deserved what she got. ---
**Author:** ![Slacker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6bbea6/32.png) [@Slacker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slacker)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/31 "2008-09-11T22:39:39Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It was clear that he was trying to flip a recent Palin joke that got a lot of laughs. When I heard the McCain start up the BS machine on this point, I wondered if anyone would really believe it. Really, it just boggles the mind. Can you explain to me what Obama meant? I assume Governor Palin is the pig, what is the lipstick? What is he saying? What’s the joke? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/32 "2008-09-11T22:41:07Z")
> [@Slacker](#): > > When I heard the McCain start up the BS machine on this point, I wondered if anyone would really believe it. Really, it just boggles the mind. Can you explain to me what Obama meant. I assume Governor Palin is the pig, what is the lipstick? What is he saying? The pig is the McCain-Palin ticket and, more broadly, the Republican Party as a whole and its failed policies. That should have been clear enough. Certainly an apt characterization. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/33 "2008-09-11T22:42:05Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It was clear that he was trying to flip a recent Palin joke that got a lot of laughs. No, what’s clear is that that’s how John McCain’s campaign, along with his supporters, have twisted it, to create a sense of false outrage. That is dishonorable, especially since **he knows better** , which is Sullivan’s point. That phrase has been in common usage for ages. John McCain has used it in exactly the same way. John McCain’s former Press Secretary, Torie Clarek, wrote the book, [Lipstick on a Pig: Winning In the No-Spin Era by Someone Who Knows the Game](http://www.amazon.com/Lipstick-Pig-Winning-No-Spin-Someone/dp/0743271165/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1221172735&sr=8-1), describing the exact right way to use this phrase, and Barack Obama’s use was spot on. John McCain had an opportunity to set the record straight, but he took the low road, showing a decided lack of integrity. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/34 "2008-09-11T22:42:27Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > How did Obama put his foot in his mouth here exactly? By agreeing with Sarah Palin that she wears lipstick, or by calling her a pig? Oh wait, he did neither. Don’t you get it? She used the word “lipstick” then he used the word “Lipstick” in a commonly used expression, one even used by McCain, and the other words he used also had letters, clearly he was calling her a pig… ---
**Author:** ![Slacker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6bbea6/32.png) [@Slacker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slacker)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/35 "2008-09-11T22:42:59Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The pig is the McCain-Palin ticket and, more broadly, the Republican Party as a whole and its failed policies. > > That should have been clear enough. > > Certainly an apt characterization. Yes I know. I’m asking what the people who are pretending to believe that it’s an attack on Governor Palin think Obama was saying. Sure he was alluding to something or making some kind of illustrative point, otherwise it was a complete non-sequitor. Like, “I think McCain’s energy policies will lead to further dependence on oil and other polluting resources. Sarah Palin is a bitch. My plan is to invest in clean energy now and for the future…” ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/36 "2008-09-11T22:57:10Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And y’know what? It worked. Obama using valuable airtime to defend his gaff is not my definition of success. But if we’re in agreement that he should continue with this course of action then hoist the sails and man the rudder. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/37 "2008-09-11T22:57:16Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > I believe that both in 2004 and now, in 2008, John Kerry is doing what he knows is best for the country, and that’s why he’s not supporting John McCain. Out of curiosity, why isn’t the same possible for McCain? Why couldn’t John McCain have been doing what he thought was best for the country in supporting George W. Bush vs. John Kerry? And of course this is disregarding our own personal politics. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/38 "2008-09-11T23:00:15Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > John McCain had an opportunity to set the record straight, but he took the low road, showing a decided lack of integrity. Obama has an opportunity to remove his foot from his mouth and apologize. He screwed up and is making it worse by drawing attention to himself. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/39 "2008-09-11T23:03:48Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Obama has an opportunity to remove his foot from his mouth and apologize. He screwed up and is making it worse by drawing attention to himself. What exactly does he have to apologize for? Using the word “lipstick”? all political debate belongs in the pit so we can say what we really think. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/40 "2008-09-11T23:06:18Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Obama has an opportunity to remove his foot from his mouth and apologize. He screwed up and is making it worse by drawing attention to himself. You do realize he didn’t actually do anything wrong, not even a _little bit_ wrong, right? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149.md?page=3)