# Resolved: John McCain does not have the integrity to be President **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 11, 2008, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149 "2008-09-11T20:18:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/41 "2008-09-11T23:09:16Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > What exactly does he have to apologize for? Using the word “lipstick”? He made a joke that backfired on him. The crowd got the humor in it. He could have backed out of it gracefully, that’s what writers are for. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/42 "2008-09-11T23:10:14Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It was clear that he was trying to flip a recent Palin joke that got a lot of laughs. It’s actually crystal clear that he was making no reference to Palin at all. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/43 "2008-09-11T23:10:41Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > How did Obama put his foot in his mouth here exactly? By agreeing with Sarah Palin that she wears lipstick, or by calling her a pig? Magiver, I’d still like you to answer my question, the one I’ve quoted above. And remember, again, that McCain used the same phrase in reference to Hillary Clinton’s healthcare plan. And after that, maybe we can get back to talking about how McCain has lost all integrity and honor in this campaign. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/44 "2008-09-11T23:12:45Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > Out of curiosity, why isn’t the same possible for McCain? Why couldn’t John McCain have been doing what he thought was best for the country in supporting George W. Bush vs. John Kerry? And of course this is disregarding our own personal politics. Of course it’s no different, if you genuinely think George W. Bush was doing the best thing by this country. Demonstrably, he wasn’t, ergo, Sullivan’s opinion that he sold out. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/45 "2008-09-11T23:17:35Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > Magiver, I’d still like you to answer my question, the one I’ve quoted above. And remember, again, that McCain used the same phrase in reference to Hillary Clinton’s healthcare plan. > > And after that, maybe we can get back to talking about how McCain has lost all integrity and honor in this campaign. Post 28. If you don’t get the humor that the crowd was laughing at I can’t explain it to you. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/46 "2008-09-11T23:17:45Z")
How much integrity does one need to be the POTUS, and how does one measure integrity? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/47 "2008-09-11T23:19:38Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Of course it’s no different, if you genuinely think George W. Bush was doing the best thing by this country. Demonstrably, he wasn’t, ergo, Sullivan’s opinion that he sold out. Of course, if you set the bar for presidency-worthiness at “will abandon and work against his poilitical party if he disagrees with their direction” then with the USA’s two-party system you have reduced the set of electable presidency-worthy canidates to “politicians who never have to face the above situation.” Though I agree that a person wuth unfailing integrity would always sell out their party before selling out their country. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/48 "2008-09-11T23:22:09Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It was clear that he was trying to flip a recent Palin joke that got a lot of laughs. Why? Because both phrases contained the word “lipstick”? ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/49 "2008-09-11T23:29:12Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > How much integrity does one need to be the POTUS, and how does one measure integrity? Nah, on second thought, since you asked so sincerely, I realize that integrity is a non-issue and can never be judged by one’s actions. You win. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/50 "2008-09-11T23:37:12Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Of course it’s no different, if you genuinely think George W. Bush was doing the best thing by this country. Demonstrably, he wasn’t, ergo, Sullivan’s opinion that he sold out. Nope. Still stinks. With regards to that point, he’s either putting thoughts into McCain’s head or assuming that John McCain had psychic powers that he was using to predict the future. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/51 "2008-09-11T23:42:30Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > Nope. Still stinks. With regards to that point, he’s either putting thoughts into McCain’s head or assuming that John McCain had psychic powers that he was using to predict the future. Fine, take it up with Sullivan then, I don’t subscribe to the same opinion. I do believe it was shameful that McCain allowed Bush – the same man who destroyed McCain in the 2000 primary campaign against him – to do the same and besmirch the reputation of his genuine friend, John Kerry. An honorable man would step forward and call for an end to such despicable and filthy campaign strategies. McCain didn’t, hence, no integrity. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/52 "2008-09-11T23:44:03Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > Nope. Still stinks. With regards to that point, he’s either putting thoughts into McCain’s head or assuming that John McCain had psychic powers that he was using to predict the future. Don’t forget that you’re talking about the 2004 election. There was plenty of prior Bush-as-President before that to refer back to. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/53 "2008-09-11T23:47:10Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Fine, take it up with Sullivan then, I don’t subscribe to the same opinion. I do believe it was shameful that McCain allowed Bush – the same man who destroyed McCain in the 2000 primary campaign against him – to do the same and besmirch the reputation of his genuine friend, John Kerry. An honorable man would step forward and call for an end to such despicable and filthy campaign strategies. McCain didn’t, hence, no integrity. [He did denounce the Swift Boat ads.](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5612836/) Were you talking about something else? ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2008, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/54 "2008-09-11T23:59:35Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > [He did denounce the Swift Boat ads.](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5612836/) Were you talking about something else? Oh yeah, that was really forceful and effective, no? Please. He had to be _asked_ for his opinion, then hedged. > [@](#): > > Asked if the White House knew about the ad or helped find financing for it, McCain said, “I hope not, but I don’t know. But I think the Bush campaign should specifically condemn the ad.” > > McCain, chairman of Bush’s campaign in Arizona, later said the Bush campaign has denied any involvement and added, “I can’t believe the president would pull such a cheap stunt.” The irony is, what he passively claimed to deplore 4 years ago, he’s actively participating in now, since it will potentially benefit him. So actually, that doesn’t even change my opinion, it just solidifies it even more. John McCain has no integrity. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/55 "2008-09-12T00:04:39Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > John McCain does not have the integrity to be President of the United States. I’m shocked you have come to this assessment. SHOCKED I tell you! ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/56 "2008-09-12T00:06:52Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I’m shocked you have come to this assessment. SHOCKED I tell you! How do you feel about the fact that Andrew Sullivan has come to this assessment? ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/57 "2008-09-12T00:11:08Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Oh yeah, that was really forceful and effective, no? Please. He had to be _asked_ for his opinion, then hedged. > [@](#): > > Republican Sen. John McCain, a former prisoner of war in Vietnam, called an ad criticizing John Kerry’s military service “dishonest and dishonorable” and urged the White House on Thursday to condemn it as well. > > The White House declined. > > “It was the same kind of deal that was pulled on me,” McCain said in an interview with The Associated Press, comparing the anti-Kerry ad to tactics in his bitter Republican primary fight with President Bush. That seems at least sincere and an apt criticism. What do you think he should have done? [QUOTE=Shayna] The irony is, what he passively claimed to deplore 4 years ago, he’s actively participating in now, since it will potentially benefit him. [/QUOTE] I agree, with the exception of the adjective “passive,” and said as much in my first post here. > [@](#): > > So actually, that doesn’t even change my opinion, it just solidifies it even more. John McCain has no integrity. Fine and fair. Simply addressing my problems with an argument posed in the editorial. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/58 "2008-09-12T00:11:34Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > How much integrity does one need to be the POTUS, and how does one measure integrity? In politics? [Use one of these.](http://redravine.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/micrometer-wiki-600px-micrometers.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/59 "2008-09-12T00:41:10Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > That seems at least sincere and an apt criticism. What do you think he should have done? > > I agree, with the exception of the adjective “passive,” and said as much in my first post here. While I have no doubt he was sincere, I take issue with the use of “urged” in the section you quoted. It looks more like he simply _said_, "I think the Bush campaign should specifically condemn the ad.” That doesn’t strike me as “urging”, but if he did more, I am and was unaware of it at the time. Which is kind of the point, no? I think a principled man who’d been damaged by this tactic himself, would’ve stepped up on his own (as opposed to waiting to be asked), and pressed both the President **and his party** not to tolerate this type of attack campaign. But as much as it supposedly offended him, he did little to nothing to actually try to make it stop, knowing the damage would be deep and severe. That doesn’t strike me as honorable in the least. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149/60 "2008-09-12T00:57:25Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > While I have no doubt he was sincere, I take issue with the use of “urged” in the section you quoted. It looks more like he simply _said_, "I think the Bush campaign should specifically condemn the ad.” That doesn’t strike me as “urging”, but if he did more, I am and was unaware of it at the time. Which is kind of the point, no? I think a principled man who’d been damaged by this tactic himself, would’ve stepped up on his own (as opposed to waiting to be asked), and pressed both the President **and his party** not to tolerate this type of attack campaign. But as much as it supposedly offended him, he did little to nothing to actually try to make it stop, knowing the damage would be deep and severe. That doesn’t strike me as honorable in the least. But you, like Sullivan, are assuming. You only know what he did publicly and you are forcing your opinions on it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-john-mccain-does-not-have-the-integrity-to-be-president/463149.md?page=4)