# Resolved: Montgomery Cty, MD does not have the right to ban fortune-telling. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 17, 2009, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-montgomery-cty-md-does-not-have-the-right-to-ban-fortune-telling/506720 "2009-08-17T14:22:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-montgomery-cty-md-does-not-have-the-right-to-ban-fortune-telling/506720/41 "2009-08-17T18:58:42Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > The story in the _Washington Post_ today indicates that a man is challenging the longstanding ban on fortunetellers in MoCo, and the county is saying all fortunetellers are scam artists because the future cannot be told. Incidentally, today’s Washington Post aslo says:“Health care will consume 40 percent of the national economy by 2050”. In this case they included the caveat “if current trends continue”, but many newspaper articles don’t even bother with that. They present facts about oil supplies in 2075 or the obesity rate for generations not even born yet as if those were proven facts, rather than predictions. Yet nobody wants to ban newspapers for those statements. Fraud is when the seller hides information from the buyer with the intention of deception. Fortune-tellers hide nothing. Information about what fortune-tellers claim and how much evidence backs them up is readily available to the public. If a member of the public chooses to ignore that information, that’s none of the government’s business. It’s a situation quite different from the mislabeling of food, in which the buyer has no way to get accurate information. False advertising occurs all the time. For instance, Bubbas Burgers claims that their burgers are the best you’ll ever taste, which (in my instance at least) was untrue. However, they were not withholding any information from me, so it was not fraud. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-montgomery-cty-md-does-not-have-the-right-to-ban-fortune-telling/506720/42 "2009-08-17T20:18:50Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > No. But two homeopaths shouldn’t be allowed to marry. Eugenics! You’re trying to stop homely, pathetic people from reproducing! ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-montgomery-cty-md-does-not-have-the-right-to-ban-fortune-telling/506720/43 "2009-08-17T23:33:01Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > There’s no claim of a personal service in that. What the shit does that have to do with anything? Surely you can’t be staking your definition of “fraud” on the offering of personal services. [Here’s an interesting article about the legal definition of fraud](http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Fraud). Some key points: > [@](#): > > Fraud must be proved by showing that the defendant’s actions involved five separate elements: (1) a false statement of a material fact,(2) knowledge on the part of the defendant that the statement is untrue, (3) intent on the part of the defendant to deceive the alleged victim, (4) justifiable reliance by the alleged victim on the statement, and (5) injury to the alleged victim as a result. #2 will be very difficult in many cases; plenty of fortunetellers are sincere in their belief in their own psychic powers. But if you can presume #2, why on earth would you allow Amazon to sell books of prophecy or books on astrology? Shouldn’t you ban the sale of such books? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-montgomery-cty-md-does-not-have-the-right-to-ban-fortune-telling/506720/44 "2009-08-17T23:47:26Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > What the shit does that have to do with anything? Surely you can’t be staking your definition of “fraud” on the offering of personal services. > > [Here’s an interesting article about the legal definition of fraud](http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Fraud). Some key points: > > #2 will be very difficult in many cases; plenty of fortunetellers are sincere in their belief in their own psychic powers. > > But if you can presume #2, why on earth would you allow Amazon to sell books of prophecy or books on astrology? Shouldn’t you ban the sale of such books? It would be quite legitimate to sell a book on the methodology, presuming that you don’t state that the methods actually _work_. Which would probably leave one or two books on the shelf. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-montgomery-cty-md-does-not-have-the-right-to-ban-fortune-telling/506720/45 "2009-08-17T23:50:31Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > It would be quite legitimate to sell a book on the methodology, presuming that you don’t state that the methods actually _work_. > > Which would probably leave one or two books on the shelf. So are you proposing that we ban the sale of any books of astrology that claim they’ll help you find your soul mate, learn more about your personality, etc.? That books on performing magic with minerals should be banned (from sale)? That books purporting to predict the future using Revelations should be banned from sale? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-montgomery-cty-md-does-not-have-the-right-to-ban-fortune-telling/506720/46 "2009-08-18T00:03:05Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > So are you proposing that we ban the sale of any books of astrology that claim they’ll help you find your soul mate, learn more about your personality, etc.? That books on performing magic with minerals should be banned (from sale)? That books purporting to predict the future using Revelations should be banned from sale? Who, me? I never proposed making selling idiocy to fools illegal in the first place. And blanket bans are dubious on point #2 mentioned previously. But yes, if you were able to demonstrate that a particular book was written by a nonbeliever to make a buck, and that book asserted that the not-believed-in things were true, then I think you could in theory make a case for fraud against the author. Just keep in mind, that belief in the contents of your book _is_ a defense. (Yes, I’m aware I seem to be backtracking - but in the prior post point #2 was presumed, and now it isn’t.) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-montgomery-cty-md-does-not-have-the-right-to-ban-fortune-telling/506720/47 "2009-08-18T00:06:15Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Who, me? I never proposed making selling idiocy to fools illegal in the first place. And blanket bans are dubious on point #2 mentioned previously. But yes, if you were able to demonstrate that a particular book was written by a nonbeliever to make a buck, and that book asserted that the not-believed-in things were true, then I think you could in theory make a case for fraud against the author. > > Just keep in mind, that belief in the contents of your book _is_ a defense. Presume for a moment that the CEO of Amazon isn’t a believer in, say, [Sexual Astrology](http://www.amazon.com/Sexual-Astrology-Sign-Sign-Sensual/dp/0440180201/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1250553939&sr=8-6). What do you think about prosecuting him for fraud? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-montgomery-cty-md-does-not-have-the-right-to-ban-fortune-telling/506720/48 "2009-08-18T00:08:22Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Presume for a moment that the CEO of Amazon isn’t a believer in, say, [Sexual Astrology](http://www.amazon.com/Sexual-Astrology-Sign-Sign-Sensual/dp/0440180201/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1250553939&sr=8-6). What do you think about prosecuting him for fraud? I think there’s a heck of a legal difference between writing a book and selling somebody else’s. At no point do I beleive that Amazon asserts the factuality of _any_ of their books -not even the overtly fictional ones!- so they can’t be nailed for asserting something about them that isn’t true. Uh, unless they lie about the price or something. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-montgomery-cty-md-does-not-have-the-right-to-ban-fortune-telling/506720/49 "2009-08-18T00:16:54Z")
- Papa did whatever he could Preach a little gospel Sell a couple of bottles of Dr. Good… _–Cher,_ Gypsies, Tramps, & Thieves\* Meh. Let him run his business. Consider it a tax on the stupid. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-montgomery-cty-md-does-not-have-the-right-to-ban-fortune-telling/506720/50 "2009-08-18T01:59:42Z")
I consider fortune-telling a lot like going to the movies. Both of them are active suspensions of disbelief for the purposes of entertainment. Yes, some chuckleheads can take them too seriously, but that’s why they’re chuckleheads. ---
**Author:** ![Calculon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5a626/32.png) [@Calculon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Calculon)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-montgomery-cty-md-does-not-have-the-right-to-ban-fortune-telling/506720/51 "2009-08-18T02:38:39Z")
While generally I would be happier if no-one went to fortune tellers, I think the law is stupid and the wrong way to go about it. Technically, one can easily claim that someone doing “fortune telling” is really only agreeing to provide a performance for the person, not actually engaging in fortune telling. The correlation between the performance and the future is then left up to the indiviual and their beliefs. So for instance just about every “fortune teller” that I have seen does not expressly sell fortune telling. What they sell is palm readings, tarot card readings, ect. Obviously the implication in these things is that these readings are in some way connected to future events. But this is not actually stated be the people selling these services. If someone offers to give say a tarot reading for money, and they do actually perform said reading, then they are fulfilling what they promised. If they took the money and did nothing, THAT then becomes fraud. Secondly, it is also difficult to claim fraud becauses claims of the future, even if entirely made up, still may be true. Indeed some of the skills of professional “fortune tellers” is to make the claims so vague they could apply to anything, and are thus never wrong. They also often excel in “cold reading”, and are thus able to make many true statements, even if the source of them is not magical. Thridly, there is also the problem that given a prediction, people can make it come true, and thus it is not necessarily false. Really, if “fortune tellers” made lots of specific predictions that were routinely false, people would see through them rather quickly and they would be out of business. Ultimately I can’t see any compelling reason for banning this sort of thing, while allowing other forms of public prognostication like stock reports and the like. The only reason for banning this in particular seems to be ideological (that fortune telling is a priori impossible), and thus is should be allowed under the first amendment. Calculon. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-montgomery-cty-md-does-not-have-the-right-to-ban-fortune-telling/506720/52 "2009-08-18T02:58:46Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I think there’s a heck of a legal difference between writing a book and selling somebody else’s. At no point do I beleive that Amazon asserts the factuality of _any_ of their books -not even the overtly fictional ones! What about the ones they classify as nonfiction? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-montgomery-cty-md-does-not-have-the-right-to-ban-fortune-telling/506720/53 "2009-08-18T03:52:01Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Why not just set up a licensure system as exists for any other professional service? All you need to do is pass the licensure test and then you can hawk your services to your heart’s content. As suggested above, this would work beautifully. Predict the winning lottery tickets three times in a row, plus the next four hands dealt in a poker game, the color of the next six cars to drive around the corner, and the results of ten rolls of a pair of D10 dice. No licenses ever issued, problem goes away. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > Nefedro says in the article that fortunetellingis part of his “heritage”, and then the ACLU guy claims it’s religious: > > _“…the ban becomes a tool to inhibit Nefedro’s First Amendment rights to free expression and to practice his religion, Quereshi said.”_ This is utter hogwash. It’s easy to claim that practicing various rites is part of your religion, but not setting up shop on a street corner and performing the rites for money for strangers. As for the book argument, the publication of a book about how to tell fortunes would certainly be protected under the first amendment. The bookseller is basically a common carrier, selling whatever books are available without taking responsibility for their content. Disclaimer: I own a bookstore. My policy is that I will get any book a customer requests if it’s available through my regular channels, but I reserve the right to pick and choose what gets space on my shelves. I believe that you have the right to write a book about whatever you wish, and the right to read a book about whatever you wish. However, I believe that if a person is convicted for practicing fraud, that person should be forbidden to write/sell books related to that subject area (e.g., if you’re convicted of fraudulently peddling patent medicines, you shouldn’t be able to just switch over to writing books about patent medicines to continue profiting from your fraud). ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-montgomery-cty-md-does-not-have-the-right-to-ban-fortune-telling/506720/54 "2009-08-18T06:08:18Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You can also do it as a business as long as you do not make fraudulent claims about it. Or rather, you could do it as a business if there were not this pointless law against it. > > I will never understand it. All the Dopers who want to legalize prostitution and drugs are all aghast at the notion of letting some fool go to a fortune-teller if she wants to. > > How is this any different from gambling? **Claims that you will get rich from gambling are just as valid as claims that your palm predicts your future**. Sometimes someone wins a jackpot. Sometimes cold reading hits a nerve. As long as they don’t guarantee you will win the jackpot or they can read the future, then leave them alone. > > Regards, > Shodan But no casino anywhere claims you _will_ get rich, only that you _can_ if you win. Big difference. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-montgomery-cty-md-does-not-have-the-right-to-ban-fortune-telling/506720/55 "2009-08-18T06:11:02Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Let’s take the _Weekly World News_ as an example, when it was published. Had “news” right in the title, but seemed to report anything but. > > Was it fraud? Would you have shut them down? WWW was satire, not news. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-montgomery-cty-md-does-not-have-the-right-to-ban-fortune-telling/506720/56 "2009-08-18T06:14:38Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > One of the mottoes of the lottery in my state is 'It Could Happen". And there is all kinds of stuff on their website about the people who won millions. Not a word about everyone who lost. “It Could Happen” is not the same as “It Will Happen”. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-montgomery-cty-md-does-not-have-the-right-to-ban-fortune-telling/506720/57 "2009-08-18T13:00:11Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I think there’s a heck of a legal difference between writing a book and selling somebody else’s. At no point do I beleive that Amazon asserts the factuality of _any_ of their books -not even the overtly fictional ones!- so they can’t be nailed for asserting something about them that isn’t true. Uh, unless they lie about the price or something. From the link: > [@Amazon](#): > > Product Description > Now you can discover the true happiness meant for you and you alone. This personal sign-by-sign guide shows you how to: > Chart Your Compatibility–Month-by-Month Matchmaking for Every Sign > Meet Your Mate–The Right Timing and Approach > Understand Your Own Needs and Desires > Please Your Partner–And Yourself > Fulfill Your Romantic Destiny > Sun signs are fine, but love signs light the way to happiness. The stars show you the way to navigate the romantic zodiac, liberate your sensual self, and achieve lasting love. Granted, that’s under “editorial reviews”–but if they’re referring to non-in-house editors, I sure can’t tell that from this page. Those claims appear to be claims made by Amazon about the book. Call the FBI? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-montgomery-cty-md-does-not-have-the-right-to-ban-fortune-telling/506720/58 "2009-08-18T13:21:49Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > But no casino anywhere claims you _will_ get rich, only that you _can_ if you win. Big difference. Then in what way is that different from this - > [@Larry Borgia](#): > > “I can predict your future for five dollars.” > “You can? Gosh! Here’s five dollars, what’s my future like?” > Peers into crystal ball “I see that you will face difficult obstacles, but you have a strong heart and a clear mind, and you will overcome them, though it will take effort.” > “Thanks, Mr. fortune teller! I really feel better, that was totally worth the five dollars.” Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-montgomery-cty-md-does-not-have-the-right-to-ban-fortune-telling/506720/59 "2009-08-18T13:46:42Z")
It should be mentioned that these fortunetelling businesses can rake in big money. According to [this site](http://www.gypsypsychicscams.com/) the average gypsy fortunetelling operation makes a quarter-million dollars a year. There have been many major victims losing tens and even hundreds of thousands of dollars to [fraudsters](http://www.fraudtech.bizland.com/gypsy_introduction.htm). And before anyone claims that exposing this particular subculture is racist, that’s just what the criminal element wants. Not so different from that Mafia kingpin decades ago who organized an anti-defamation league. And the law in Montgomery County (and in other places from what I’ve heard) does not single out any particular ethnic group. Sure, we could just dismiss the victims as “chuckleheads”. But part of the purpose of consumer fraud laws is to protect people from the consequences of their stupidity and prevent the unscrupulous from taking advantage of them. Some will always find ways to lose their money in scams. We don’t have to make it easy for the fraud artists by permitting them to openly set up shop. As to **Shodan** ’s state lottery motto (supposedly “It Could Happen”), my state’s lottery motto is “Odds Are, You’ll Have Fun”. Neither offers the complete picture, but far from a promise that you’ll get rich. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-montgomery-cty-md-does-not-have-the-right-to-ban-fortune-telling/506720/60 "2009-08-18T13:51:38Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Then in what way is that different from this In that what **Larry Borgia** has the fortuneteller saying is true - for everyone. Well, there is often contrary evidence for the “clear mind” part, but not in the eye of the subject himself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-montgomery-cty-md-does-not-have-the-right-to-ban-fortune-telling/506720.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/resolved-montgomery-cty-md-does-not-have-the-right-to-ban-fortune-telling/506720.md?page=4)